New vampire: Lord Leopold Valemar, Lasombra Priscus

Klaital wrote:

Maybe, but you can't compare discplines in a vacuum, especially ones like these that are predominantly only part of one clan, you have to think of the whole clan discpline package as a whole. Like for example, Serpentis might not be an all star discpline, but it also comes with obf/pre, and augments those nicely, same as how you mentioned yourself that Obtenebration always comes with Dominate. Chimerstry though is a great discpline even on it's own, you can do literally anything with it, I have made successful Ravnos decks ranging from stealth bleed to combat walls. It's only drawback is that it's blood intensive, but Ravnos have tons of ways to manage that.

It's not a vacuum, it's apples to apples. 1994 malks are better stealth bleeders and arguably better at blocking (for obedience of course) due to having access to both second tradition and auspex. With potenece, obtenebration could compliment it for combat but it really doesn't. It has limited and generally bad stealth and intercept options. The Lasombra clan cards aren't any better than Malk clan cards.

So what are they?

They're too squishy to fight, not as good at stealth bleeding, lack presence for voting and not enough intercept to be serious blockers. For a min-maxer, they aren't the best choice for anything. Does this mean they can't win tables? Absolutely not. But they aren't a go-to for anything and that should raise some questions.

And that brings us back to obtenebration. What does it do? It does a lot of things poorly, and the only thing it supports in a meaningful way is stealth. You don't need stealth for potence actions, but if you did Nosferatu have obfuscate. Malks have obfuscate for bleeding. So obtenebrate is a crappy obfuscate with "end combat" options. That doesn't really blow my skirt up.

Obfuscate has end combat, hehe. I'm sorry your favorite clan is so bad hog. It's ok I guess cuz they have dominate or something...

DJHedgehog wrote:

So obtenebrate is a crappy obfuscate with "end combat" options. That doesn't really blow my skirt up.

If you're looking for OBT effects that can't be replicated with OBF, probably better to not ignore the existence of Nocturn.

But the bigger issue with your argument is that it ignores the middle ground which is the home of disciplines whose functionality is good but not best in class (ie, every non-terrible discipline except about five of them). To say that OBT is a crappy stealth discipline in comparison with OBF is true but not useful, because every discipline is a crappy stealth discipline compared to OBF.

If your argument is that any discipline that isn't the best at what it does is "bad," you ignore that disciplines don't need to be best to be useful. Ignoring granularity in complex systems isn't a productive approach to trying to understand them.

DJHedgehog wrote:

Klaital wrote:

And that brings us back to obtenebration. What does it do? It does a lot of things poorly, and the only thing it supports in a meaningful way is stealth. You don't need stealth for potence actions, but if you did Nosferatu have obfuscate. Malks have obfuscate for bleeding. So obtenebrate is a crappy obfuscate with "end combat" options. That doesn't really blow my skirt up.

So there is an Obtenebration effect that is both unique and good, but it is very specific.

Hell-for-Leather
Requires an anarch. Only one Hell-for-Leather may be played at a given Discipline each combat.
Strike: dodge, with an additional strike.
Additional strike (that doesn't count against the limit).
Play if this anarch is ready and the opposing minion is not. The opposing minion's controller burns 2 pool.

It is unfortunate that Leopold can't easily become Anarch where both his could actually be used.

As far as your comment about Lasombra masters go... Power Structure is fantastic and imho one of the best clan specific masters.

Kushiel wrote:

DJHedgehog wrote:

So obtenebrate is a crappy obfuscate with "end combat" options. That doesn't really blow my skirt up.

If you're looking for OBT effects that can't be replicated with OBF, probably better to not ignore the existence of Nocturn.

But the bigger issue with your argument is that it ignores the middle ground which is the home of disciplines whose functionality is good but not best in class (ie, every non-terrible discipline except about five of them). To say that OBT is a crappy stealth discipline in comparison with OBF is true but not useful, because every discipline is a crappy stealth discipline compared to OBF.

If your argument is that any discipline that isn't the best at what it does is "bad," you ignore that disciplines don't need to be best to be useful. Ignoring granularity in complex systems isn't a productive approach to trying to understand them.

But the discipline isn't functionally good. The stealth is useful but it all has a cost, and blood management is a super important part of the game. I will admit that Nocturn is a solid card that requires obtenebration, but it's not crazy in power due to its cost. You really have to set up (either through crypt or deck building) to make Nocturns great.

You're falling into your own trap, which is to say that you're looking at the "vacuum" of usefulness when compared to disciplines of the clan. If you sit at a table with another deck that is more efficient, chances are the more efficient deck will come out on top.

Ultimately obtenebration, and Lasombra as a whole, don't add anything to the game except fluff. They replicate existing strategies and do them worse. This whole "granularity in a complex system" argument may sound elegant, but it's a smoke screen. The system is relatively simple: manage your resources and remove the resources of your opponent while trying to manage the table to earn a table win. Obetenebration doesn't provide a different strategy in managing your resources (unless your strategy is to spend more to get less), in taking away opponent's resources, defending your resources, or in managing the table.

jblacey wrote:

So there is an Obtenebration effect that is both unique and good, but it is very specific.

Hell-for-Leather
Requires an anarch. Only one Hell-for-Leather may be played at a given Discipline each combat.
Strike: dodge, with an additional strike.
Additional strike (that doesn't count against the limit).
Play if this anarch is ready and the opposing minion is not. The opposing minion's controller burns 2 pool.

It is unfortunate that Leopold can't easily become Anarch where both his could actually be used.

As far as your comment about Lasombra masters go... Power Structure is fantastic and imho one of the best clan specific masters.

Hell for leather is more a value of being an anarch than being a lasombra. Any anarch with any discipline spread can use the card. Hell for leather is a fantastic card that I've seen shoe-horned into decks that ultimately couldn't take advantage of it. That's more a negative aspect of combat since it's so card-intensive, and adding another piece just makes combat less viable and more clunky.

Yes, power structure is a great clan specific free card. That's not enough to validate the current state of obtenebrate or Lasombra. I'd rather have presence as an offensive measure or delaying tactics as a defensive one.

Oh I will admit that I missed Entombment because that card is great.