question-circle Pentex Subversion Poll #2 and Discussion

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Poll: Possible fixes for Pentex Subversion

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28 Jun 2012 19:22 - 28 Jun 2012 19:23 #32592 by Ankha

Ohlmann wrote: But people play Pentex subversion not because big cap deck exist. They play it because big cap dominate

No, they play it to handle decks that put all their eggs in the same basket, or abuse the superstar principle to create a monster impossible to handle. Being a high cap usually grants some extra power (bleeding for 3 in 1 action is better than bleeding 3 times for 1). It should also have a drawback.
Pentex can be also quite strategical when you have to wait the right moment to play it to oust your prey.
It also offers options to decks that would be locked otherwise. If I play a swarm deck, is it normal that 1 No Secrets From the Magaji locks me down? Pentex offers a solution.

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Last edit: 28 Jun 2012 19:23 by Ankha.

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28 Jun 2012 19:54 #32594 by Ohlmann

Ankha wrote: No, they play it to handle decks that put all their eggs in the same basket, or abuse the superstar principle to create a monster impossible to handle. Being a high cap usually grants some extra power (bleeding for 3 in 1 action is better than bleeding 3 times for 1). It should also have a drawback.
Pentex can be also quite strategical when you have to wait the right moment to play it to oust your prey.

I agree it's a way better way to explain it.

Ankha wrote: It also offers options to decks that would be locked otherwise. If I play a swarm deck, is it normal that 1 No Secrets From the Magaji locks me down? Pentex offers a solution.


Or, to put in other words, there is three card that are solutions useable against about any deck : Direct Intervention, Sudden Reversal, and Pentex Subversion. Of the three, the Pentex still is the one which is the less disruptive in my opinion.

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28 Jun 2012 20:04 #32595 by Juggernaut1981

Ankha wrote:

Jeff Kuta wrote: Pentex is a master card and therefore by definition doesn't (initially) involve minion interaction.

Huh? 95% percent of the master cards involve minions. Blood Doll. Villein. Powerbase: Montreal. Zillah's Valley. Metro Underground. The Rack. The Coven. Dreams of the Sphinx (for influence). Hunting Grounds. Disciplines...


Master cards interact with minions. Minions interact with Master cards... BUT when Jeff Kuta is talking about "Minion Interaction" he doesn't mean: "The master cards have effects on minions..." Generally Jeff (and a few others, myself included) think of "Minion Interaction" as the interplay between 2 or more minions during the play of the game.


My dislike for Pentex is the "early game neutering" effect. It can be achieved by other decks doing similar things (on case from my own recent play is being Banished three turns in a row by my predator... very very boring game). It makes you wonder why you bothered to put the cards in sleeves and waste your time on the trip to the game. It gets worse if it is a tournament because then you know your chances of getting into finals have probably been smashed AND that you might as well not have forked out your entry fee (here's your token booster, thanks for coming to subsidise that asshole's winnings).

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28 Jun 2012 20:47 - 28 Jun 2012 20:48 #32596 by AaronC

Ankha wrote: No, they play it to handle decks that put all their eggs in the same basket, or abuse the superstar principle to create a monster impossible to handle. Being a high cap usually grants some extra power (bleeding for 3 in 1 action is better than bleeding 3 times for 1). It should also have a drawback.


Those decks already have several drawbacks. They get fewer actions. They have one principal target for rushes and blocks. They usually take longer to influence out their vampire or have to dedicate deck space to acceleration. These are significant penalties.

I am not at all sure that spending 11 pool to bleed for three with one action is better than spending 3 to 6 pool to bleed for one with three actions.

My experience is that it takes several actions and drawing the right cards to turn a great vampire into an unstoppable monster. Two pool, an MPA, and some chump blockers can nullify that considerable investment.

Ankha wrote: Pentex can be also quite strategical when you have to wait the right moment to play it to oust your prey.
It also offers options to decks that would be locked otherwise. If I play a swarm deck, is it normal that 1 No Secrets From the Magaji locks me down? Pentex offers a solution.


I think everyone who has posted here agrees with the ability of the Pentex Subversion to remove a blocker from play in order to lunge or to break a "block everything" superstar deck. (I know some players don't like that aspect, of course.)

What we're discussing is the ability of Pentex to prevent superstars from acting at all.
Last edit: 28 Jun 2012 20:48 by AaronC.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Reyda

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28 Jun 2012 21:17 - 28 Jun 2012 21:21 #32597 by Izaak
I don't really think Pentex needs a change as there are like, a bazillion other things that are way more disruptive to the playing experience than Pentex is and those are not even being discussed, let alone touched. If your deck falls apart when you get a Pentex, your deck stinks. It's simple as that.

That said, I see it almost exclusively being used as block-denial tool and only occasionally see it being played early on. Unless I'm playing with fish, some crosstable will remove it. If they don't that means at least two players at the table suck, or your deck is sufficiently threatening to the table that people are fine with you gone. Neither of those are Pentex's fault.

As long as Una, Al Muntahir or Gerald Windham freak show shit decks (*) are wasting people's time left, right and center Pentex needs to be left alone.

(*) An easy fix, by the way, would be to reword Ankara Citadel to say "the TREMERE with this card can,ONCE PER TURN..." and and Una to "ONCE PER TURN, Una can...". Then while you're at it make No Secret's "block as if untapped" effect cost a blood.

Once that is done you might start thinking about Pentex again.

It makes you wonder why you bothered to put the cards in sleeves and waste your time on the trip to the game. It gets worse if it is a tournament because then you know your chances of getting into finals have probably been smashed AND that you might as well not have forked out your entry fee (here's your token booster, thanks for coming to subsidise that asshole's winnings).


Wow someone is angry...

This is, FYI, exactly the same thing as your beloved combat deck pounding a 10-cap into the ground before it has acted. Which happens a lot more than people getting Pentexed on turn 3.

And for some reason people are asking for a Pentex nerf and a boost to combat... Hurrrrr....
Last edit: 28 Jun 2012 21:21 by Izaak.

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28 Jun 2012 21:37 #32598 by AaronC

Izaak wrote: If your deck falls apart when you get a Pentex, your deck stinks. It's simple as that.


That's funny. I have seen Pentex do horrible damage to decks that have won games and gotten into finals. Pentex makes good decks fall apart, and that is precisely why we are discussing it and why people play it so much.

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