Timing of "Kindred Spirits" under "The Rising"

Molloy wrote:

The reason "successful bleed" is usually checked after the resolution of the action per se is only that the most common reason to do so, gaining the edge, is not part of the action per se.

It's not for that, in fact. It's a counter-intuitive side effect of the golden rule.

How it work is that you cannot put effect or play card in the middle of the resolution of something, except when you cannot do otherwise.

That's why you cannot play Freak Drive or gain pool from the Unnamed before the bleed resolve entirely : it's not necessary to do so, you can do it immediatly after.

That's also why you can play Spying mission in the middle of a bleed resolution : you cannot let the bleed resolution finish to play it, and you cannot play it before the bleed start to resolve.

The problematic part is the fact that the KS pool gain is formulated like a trigger on succesful bleed, and can very easily be argumented as being one (which is what I have done), and have been ruled as not being a trigger but part of the action resolution.

The edge itself could be backed into the bleed resolution, is worded like the KS pool gain, and his text seem to be part of the definition of a bleed. It had even more to the confusion, since people expect both to behave in the same way by similarity.

(it's important to note that, in order to people to do the good ruling by themselves, ruling must be logical, but should also appear natural to human, and a ruling being similar to ruling to other similar situation is a good goal)

So, no, it's not a consistent ruling, and it's not more logical than the other reasonment.

You are mistaken. The Kindred SPirits action consists of what's printed on the Kindred Spirits action card.

Yes. And it says "Bleed any Methusalah." FULL STOP.

And then, after describing the action, tells you what happens when the action is completed succesfully. The gaining of the pool is not part of the actual action, because it cannot possibly resolve while the action is still going on because as long as it's going on there is no succesfull bleed.

This is the same, as, for example, Shadow of the Beast. That says "Put this card on the acting vampire." FULL STOP. The card then proceeds to tell us what happens to the vampire with this card. Or do you want to argue now that when the vampire with Shadow of the Beast fails to use the optional maneuver the action to put the card on fails? Or something?

Are you just arguing for arguments sake?

...gaining the edge, is not part of the action per se.

The rulebook disagrees with you here.

LSJ was diligent about making logical and consistent rulings, and this is one of them. One could have ruled that the second sentence of Kindred Spirits *implicitly* sets up an effect that occurs outside of the action, but that would have been a terrible ruling, opening up the question of what other things written on action cards are secretly, implicitly, outside the action itself.

Actually the ruling as it is, is actually terrible.

Izaak wrote:

You are mistaken. The Kindred SPirits action consists of what's printed on the Kindred Spirits action card.

Yes. And it says "Bleed any Methusalah." FULL STOP.

And then, after describing the action, tells you what happens when the action is completed succesfully. The gaining of the pool is not part of the actual action, because it cannot possibly resolve while the action is still going on because as long as it's going on there is no succesfull bleed.

This is the same, as, for example, Shadow of the Beast. That says "Put this card on the acting vampire." FULL STOP. The card then proceeds to tell us what happens to the vampire with this card. Or do you want to argue now that when the vampire with Shadow of the Beast fails to use the optional maneuver the action to put the card on fails? Or something?

Are you just arguing for arguments sake?

...gaining the edge, is not part of the action per se.

The rulebook disagrees with you here.

LSJ was diligent about making logical and consistent rulings, and this is one of them. One could have ruled that the second sentence of Kindred Spirits *implicitly* sets up an effect that occurs outside of the action, but that would have been a terrible ruling, opening up the question of what other things written on action cards are secretly, implicitly, outside the action itself.

Actually the ruling as it is, is actually terrible.

Wow. Just wow. What you're saying is so stupid I'm almost ashamed of myself for responding. Shadow of the Wolf?!?!?!?! It puts a card into play and then says, "The vampire with this card..." You're seriously suggesting that's how Kindred Spirits works, too? I'm laughing at you.

Non-existant user wrote:

Molloy wrote:

(...) gaining the edge is not part of the [bleed] action per se.

Why? Gaining the edge is in the definition of the bleed action in the rulebook, section 6.1.1, and that definition does not mention that it happens after resolution. If your reasoning on action cards is valid, then per the same reasoning, gaining the edge is part of a bleed action.

I just reread 6.1.1 in case you were right. You're not. It doesn't make sense to read all the several paragraphs of 6.1.1 as a 'definition' -- it's more a description. Would it be consistent with 6.1.1 to include gaining the edge as part of a bleed action per se (as opposed to a consequence of the action)? Yes, I think it would. Is it consistent with 6.1.1 to consider gaining the edge as a consequence of the bleed action rather than part of the action itself? Yes, I think it is and, obviously, LSJ thought it was.

The issue arose because of the unfortunate tendency for effects to crowd into the same window. The rule structure, based on the rulebook, card text, and rules team rulings, has comparmentalized some things that might otherwise be trying to happen at the same time.

The separation of (1) the internal effects of the action and (2) a window after resolution but before the action is over was a reasonable solution. I haven't heard a better one. Considering gaining the edge as an internal part of the bleed would resurrect the problems that these rules have already solved.

Assuming an internal and external portion of the action ("internal" and "external are my words, not official terms, but what they refer to is perfectly clear in terms of the rules), the question may arise as to what is internal and what is external. The current rule, and surely the most straight forward one, is that what's internal to an action is precisely what the action says is internal to it. That leaves only cardless actions in doubt.

As for bleeding, what's internal in "bleed" is the target methuselah's being bled (losing pool) for the bleed amount. The acting methuselah gaining the edge is a consequence external to the bleed acttion. This is neither confirmed nor denied by 6.1.1, which says nothing about the interior or exterior of the action. It is simply the current rule, which was a good solution to problems that arose.

Now, Kindred Spirits is not the cardless bleed action. What's interior to the Kindred Spirits action is exactly what the card says.

Some people seem to want the definition of "successful bleed" to be changed to: a successful action resulting in a bleed for one or more that has already been resolved. It *could* be ruled that this is indeed the definition of a successful bleed. That would contradict the current rules and conflict with the apparent definition of "successful bleed" included in 6.1.1 and in reminder texts on cards, which is simply: a successful action resulting in a bleed for one or more.

You're seriously suggesting that's how Kindred Spirits works, too?

No, you are, actually. You are also quite epically failing at reading it seems. Might have to do with you being blinded by your own belief that everything is crystal clear and fine.

I'm suggesting KS does what it says it does.

I'm laughing at you.

Good for you.