Timing of "Kindred Spirits" under "The Rising"

Exactly -- Jeremy's card says his thing is done as an action. That's exactly what's going on here. How is it possible that people keep missing the obvious?

The gaining 1 pool from KS isn't an action either. The bleed is an action, the pool gain is a side-effect for succesfully completing the bleed action.

Unnamed's card text isn't an action, because it's a side effect for any succesfull bleed action she does.

It's the exact same thing, yet KS apparently gives you the edge after gaining the pool and Unnamed gives you the edge before gaining the pool. That makes no sense *whatsoever*. How is it possible that you keep missing the obvious?

Reyda wrote:

Certainly because the unnamed's ability is not worded "as an action" and has nothhing to do with our problem here, making it far less obvious than you pretend ? Just sayin !

On the contrary, that is exactly the situation here. The pool gain in KS is part of the action per se. The pool gain from TU is not part the action per se.

That is how it works (it is the rule) and that is how it should work, because it's logically consistent. Consequences of an action that are not part of the action itself (e.g. gaining the edge for a successful bleed, or gaining two pool when The Unnamed bleeds successfully) take place after the ones that are internal to the action (e.g. gaining a pool for a successful bleed with the Kindred Spirits action).

Izaak wrote:

The gaining 1 pool from KS isn't an action either. The bleed is an action, the pool gain is a side-effect for succesfully completing the bleed action.

You are mistaken. The Kindred SPirits action consists of what's printed on the Kindred Spirits action card.

Rulebook 6.1.1.

Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any.

It now appears that LSJ has ruled this has the same phasing as freak drive, voter cap., etc..., though that is not obvious from the rulebook. Now I wonder if that is right, you cannot play freak drive after you replaced the card from bum's rush, so action cards effects are in that window. Is the Edge gained after the action. The unnamed looks like a mandatory effect that should take place in the same window as KS.

I got nothing...

Kindred Spirits

[dem] Bleed any Methuselah. Gain 1 pool if bleed is successful (for 1 or more).

The unnamed

Independent: The unnamed may strike: 2R aggravated damage as a strike that costs 1 blood. If it successfully bleeds, you gain 2 pool. Infernal.

Molloy wrote:

Reyda wrote:

Certainly because the unnamed's ability is not worded "as an action" and has nothhing to do with our problem here, making it far less obvious than you pretend ? Just sayin !

On the contrary, that is exactly the situation here. The pool gain in KS is part of the action per se. The pool gain from TU is not part the action per se.

I don't doubt the pool gain is part of the action, but there is a point you didn't really check : the pool gain is not automatic. It is subservient to a condition which is "the bleed action is succesful and the bleed amount is not reduced to 0 or less".
This is the same thing that must happen when you want to gain the 2 pool from The Unnamed's special.

Molloy wrote:

On the contrary, that is exactly the situation here. The pool gain in KS is part of the action per se. The pool gain from TU is not part the action per se.

You are mistaken, because you falsely believe that an action alway have all its effect resolved at once. Check Fiendish tongue to see that it's not the case ; all that can be resolved immediatly is, and everything else is resolved when due.

That's why Fiendish Tongue untap happen at the end of the turn and not immediatly. It look pretty evident, since it's printed on it.

And here ? Well, we have a strong case about the pool gain not being possible at the action resolution, the strong case being that nearly all effects that check for a successful action (Freak drive) or bleed (The Unnamend) have tio wait for the action to be completed.

So, for the exact same reason that the untap of Fiendish tongue have to wait the end of the turn, the pool gain of KS should wait for the entire resolution of the action... Or not. That's the problem.

You can look at it another way : to check if the action or bleed is successful before it completely resolve, you need to break rules. The golden rule say that it can happen only if it cannot be otherwise or if it's specifically stated. Neither case here, apparently, since you could gain the pool after resolution like the unnamed.

So, as you can see, there is strongs arguments for KS pool gain to be delayed. So there is confusion. So Pascal will clear that up (hopefully), and is checking card so to have a solution that does not provoke paradox on other card and is still simple to understand.