Timing of "Kindred Spirits" under "The Rising"

Reyda wrote:

Molloy wrote:

Reyda wrote:

Certainly because the unnamed's ability is not worded "as an action" and has nothhing to do with our problem here, making it far less obvious than you pretend ? Just sayin !

On the contrary, that is exactly the situation here. The pool gain in KS is part of the action per se. The pool gain from TU is not part the action per se.

I don't doubt the pool gain is part of the action, but there is a point you didn't really check : the pool gain is not automatic. It is subservient to a condition which is "the bleed action is succesful and the bleed amount is not reduced to 0 or less".
This is the same thing that must happen when you want to gain the 2 pool from The Unnamed's special.

Yes, in both cases the pool gain is is contingent on the success of the bleed. That is neither here nor there to the the fact that in one case it is part of the action itself and in the other it is not.

Ohlmann wrote:

Molloy wrote:

On the contrary, that is exactly the situation here. The pool gain in KS is part of the action per se. The pool gain from TU is not part the action per se.

You are mistaken, because you falsely believe that an action alway have all its effect resolved at once. Check Fiendish tongue to see that it's not the case ; all that can be resolved immediatly is, and everything else is resolved when due.

That's why Fiendish Tongue untap happen at the end of the turn and not immediatly. It look pretty evident, since it's printed on it.

And here ? Well, we have a strong case about the pool gain not being possible at the action resolution, the strong case being that nearly all effects that check for a successful action (Freak drive) or bleed (The Unnamend) have tio wait for the action to be completed.

So, for the exact same reason that the untap of Fiendish tongue have to wait the end of the turn, the pool gain of KS should wait for the entire resolution of the action... Or not. That's the problem.

You can look at it another way : to check if the action or bleed is successful before it completely resolve, you need to break rules. The golden rule say that it can happen only if it cannot be otherwise or if it's specifically stated. Neither case here, apparently, since you could gain the pool after resolution like the unnamed.

So, as you can see, there is strongs arguments for KS pool gain to be delayed. So there is confusion. So Pascal will clear that up (hopefully), and is checking card so to have a solution that does not provoke paradox on other card and is still simple to understand.

Fiendish Tongues explicitly sets up a possible effect at an explicit later time in the game. Cards do that sometimes. That is not what Kindred Spirits is doing. How do I know? Because it's not what Kindred Spirits says it's doing.

Resolving a successful Kindred Spirits action per se has two parts: the target methuselah burns pool for a bleed of X and the controller of the acting minion gains 1 pool if X > 0. There's no paradox of having to resolve the action before you can resolve the action.

Molloy wrote:

Yes, in both cases the pool gain is is contingent on the success of the bleed. That is neither here nor there to the the fact that in one case it is part of the action itself and in the other it is not.

Except that it have not to be part of the resolution. LSJ ruled that it is, and a significant number of people stumble on that.

Also, I don't know how this work with Spying mission sup', that can be played during the action resolution and change the successful status.

Molloy wrote:

Because it's not what Kindred Spirits says it's doing.

That's the part you get wrong.

Kindred spirit say that it does something on successful bleed. Successful bleed or action is usually checked once the action is resolved. So people expect Kindred Spirit to do the same, because it's worded the same way and there is no part that imply it work differently.

Now, it does, because of a LSJ ruling (based themselves on analogy reasonment), and that's problematic because too much people can't figure that by themselves.

Ohlmann wrote:

Molloy wrote:

Because it's not what Kindred Spirits says it's doing.

That's the part you get wrong.

Kindred spirit say that it does something on successful bleed. Successful bleed or action is usually checked once the action is resolved. So people expect Kindred Spirit to do the same, because it's worded the same way and there is no part that imply it work differently.

Now, it does, because of a LSJ ruling (based themselves on analogy reasonment), and that's problematic because too much people can't figure that by themselves.

The reason "successful bleed" is usually checked after the resolution of the action per se is only that the most common reason to do so, gaining the edge, is not part of the action per se.

The way something most commonly occurs does not make a strong argument that it doesn't occur other ways as well. It might lead to some confusion when some effect occurs in some other way than the way it most frequently occurs, but -- as long as the rules are logically consistent -- the confusion only happens because people are reading their expectation as though it were a law.

LSJ was diligent about making logical and consistent rulings, and this is one of them. One could have ruled that the second sentence of Kindred Spirits *implicitly* sets up an effect that occurs outside of the action, but that would have been a terrible ruling, opening up the question of what other things written on action cards are secretly, implicitly, outside the action itself.

Molloy wrote:

(...) gaining the edge is not part of the [bleed] action per se.

Why? Gaining the edge is in the definition of the bleed action in the rulebook, section 6.1.1, and that definition does not mention that it happens after resolution. If your reasoning on action cards is valid, then per the same reasoning, gaining the edge is part of a bleed action.