Caitiff, the Puzzling

FrançoisV wrote:

Wouldn't it be simpler to "counter-rule" this "Caitiff is not a clan" thing and make Caitiff a clan ?

An even simpler solution would be to put that "clanless camarilla or independant" == "caitiff". No strange interaction, no special rule, no or very few difference from now.

Ohlmann wrote:

FrançoisV wrote:

Wouldn't it be simpler to "counter-rule" this "Caitiff is not a clan" thing and make Caitiff a clan ?

An even simpler solution would be to put that "clanless camarilla or independant" == "caitiff". No strange interaction, no special rule, no or very few difference from now.

Well this would be a special rule, and wouldn't easily prevent asking unnecessary question #1 :
"why can't I call a con boon on Caitiff while my Caitiffs are printed with a Caitiff *clan* symbol ?".

Actually all the confusion comes from the fact that card layout doesn't match the rules (Caitiff is printed in the same way as a clan symbol and not as a trait), and I think that, *in this special case*, making the rules match the layout is less costly than the other way around, and of little consequence.

I'm still unclear: If a Caitiff gains a clan in a way that does not explicitly remove the Caitiff trait, is it still there? e.g. If a Caitiff clan impersonates brujah, or gets Deranged.

Pascal wrote:

KevinM wrote:

vtesocrates wrote:

Basically as far as the game is concerned, Caitiff IS a clan except for any effect that actually looks at clan. In those cases Caitiff is not a clan.

PASCAL can you please insert this somewhere into the "trait" section of the website, or the rulebook, or whatever, so that the precious moments of our lives can be spent contemplating weighty issues rather than minutia? Thanks.

General Rulings wrote:

If a Caitiff creates another vampire (via the Embrace, for example), the created is Caitiff (and clanless) by default (unless card text says otherwise, of course). [LSJ 20011228] [LSJ 20020102]

Is this enough, or should we have more?
It's been there for a year and a half.

Ankha wrote:

Just consider that the Caitiff trait works like a clan (ie. is lost when changing clan, is inherited by a Third Tradition) except that it's not a clan (cannot be chosen for Consanguineous Boon, Sanguine Instruction etc.)

That's essentially what LSJ declared when Heirs to the Blood was printed.

www.vekn.net/index.php/card-lists/143-heirs-to-the-blood

That wrote:

Two new Disciplines that are only available to infernal vampires. The same way that Caitiff is not a clan, these are not true Disciplines, however (so just like "Caitiff" cannot be chosen for Consanguineous Boon, Ian Forestal couldn't use his ability to meet a Striga requirement, for example, nor could Maleficia be chosen as one of the Great Beast's Disciplines).

So Maleficia and Striga are pseudo-disciplines and Caitiff is a pseudo-clan. When yuo have to choose a clan, pseudo-clans don't count. When you have to choose a discipline, pseudo-disciplines don't count.


Similarly, and more directly (again, about Heirs):
[LSJ 20100226]

LSJ wrote:

> The use of the
> symbols effectively means "requires Maleficia / requires superior
> Maleficia", which if not a discipline, is... what exactly?

A Discipline-less Discipline. (Like Caitiff is a clan-less clan.)

www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=Checklist_HeirsToTheBlood

(The link to the checklist is the same text as earlier, obviously.)

None of those quotes address my confusion in any way. I understand that Caitiff is a trait that passes to babies. I also THINK I understand that things that affect clan DON't affect Caitiff. Therefore, I see no reason why, If a caitiff somehow gains a clan, they should not remain Caitiff. (this is based off the rules and rulings presented thus far)
IN FACT, the fact that Revelation of the Sire EXPLICITLY removes the Caitiff trait, would IMPLY that simply gaining a clan does NOT, inherently, remove the Caitiff trait. None of the ruling liked thus far address that question.
I grant that the answer to this question may be highly unlikely to affect any actual game... but I am determined to understand this (IMO needlessly complicated) issue to it's full extent.