sequencing of before range effects

Is there any sequencing of before range effects or they are resolved at the same time?
F.e. acting minion is playing Outside the Hourglass, blocking minion is using some before ramge combat ends effect (f.e. alpha glint/ Maman Boumba special. Mariel, Lady Thunder special). Would such combat end save the blocking minion from damage inflicted by Outside the hourglass?

There's no speed advantage given to S:CE effects outside of strike resolution.
There isn't specific damage resolution phase in range setting
There isn't any que or stack of effects.

Everything in the before "range is determined window" is resolved immediately after its prplay. Opportunity/priority for play granted by having the impulse, which always returns to the acting player after the play of any card by any player.

So in your example, the blocking player doesn't even have a window to play the Alpha Glint before Outside the Hourglass is handled. The blocker would have a chance to play damage prevention, because that's a part of resolving any incoming damage packet - not because there's some unwritten damage resolution step in pre-range.

(Before someone asks why Alpha Glint then....the answer is complete immunity to Immortal Grapple, which would have been played in a step after Glint's S:CE resolves)

Pascal, could you confirm it?
and what about cards like Horrid Form/ Flesh of Marble? Assuming your point of view, Horrid Form won't prevent damage from Outside the Hourglass because at the time Outside the Hourglass effect comes into play, Horrid form is not even played. Is that right?

alek wrote:

Pascal, could you confirm it?

Grapple's basic point is sound - you follow the normal sequencing rules to play effects, and each effect resolves when played. There isn't a situation where you pile up pre-range effects and they all take effect at the end of the phase, when you move into choosing range.

For example, Terror Frenzy superior makes the opposing vampire's cards cost one additional blood. So:

Vamp A (acting): I play Torn Signpost. No more effects from me.
Vamp B (blocking/reacting/whatever): I play Terror Frenzy at superior.
(Chance to play effects passes back to Vamp A.)
Vamp A: Oh, that's unexpected, and that means... so I'll change my plans. In which case, I'll play Increased Strength now. Terror Frenzy makes Increased Strength cost a blood.


But:

Vamp A: I play Torn Signpost. I also play Increased Strength.
Vamp B: I play Terror Frenzy.

Net result: Vamp A still has the blood that Increased Strength would have cost in the first example.

alek wrote:

and what about cards like Horrid Form/ Flesh of Marble? Assuming your point of view, Horrid Form won't prevent damage from Outside the Hourglass because at the time Outside the Hourglass effect comes into play, Horrid form is not even played. Is that right?

However, damage is more subtle. Damage dealing effects like Hourglass resolve when played, meaning you take the damage, but that doesn't mean you immediately burn the blood.

Yes, I play Outside the Hourglass. Yes, it immediately inflicts 2 damage on you. But that means we move into damage handling. During damage handling, you can play or use effects that would prevent damage, such as playing Skin of Rock. You can also play other effects during damage handling, such as tapping The Barrens. And this means that - at the time that you could be playing Skin of Rock - you could also be playing another effect.

www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR120204.txt
Thus, in the gap where you might be playing Skin of Rock in response to Hourglass, you can also play Flesh of Marble.

This is somewhat fragile to explain, but both obvious ways of handling this - you can only play damage prevention effects, or you can play all effects - have downsides. In particular, the obvious situation is a player who wants to tap Dreams or the Barrens to cycle their hand a little - and during, say, stealth/intercept fights, you can use such effects, or play other effects (e.g. playing Threats while you're on 0 stealth and your prey is on 2 intercept) to cycle cards. It's a little like that.

The third obvious way of handling this - such as "You can play hand cycling effects, but not arbitrary effects" - is equally annoying, because does Barrens count? That's discard a card. How about Fragment? That's draw 2 cards. How about Dreams/Aura Reading? That's increased hand size. Wait, if I can only play damage prevent and discard/draw/hand-size effects, does that mean I can't play Skin of Night inferior - change handling of damaeg, but no prevent - in response to receiving agg damage?


Explicit rulings, cover Flesh and Horrid Form, amongst others:

[LSJ 20100526]

LSJ wrote:

On May 25, 5:36 pm, Blooded Sand <> wrote:
> On May 25, 11:11 pm, Drago13 <> wrote:
>
> > There was a situation a couple of days ago when some Trujah was
> > blocked by The Unnamed.
> > He played Outside the hourglass to inflict 2 damage on The Unnamed.
> > Can The Unnamed play Flesh of Marble to reduce damage taken to 1?
> > Or does OTH resolve right away before any cards can be played by
> > blocking minion?
> > My guess is the latter, but not everyone in my gaming group thinks
> > that way.
> > Their argument is that Flesh of Marble is a damage preventing effect
> > and so it can be played during ''prevent damage'' step of damage from
> > OTH, similar to using Soak or smth.
>
> Nope. You can play soak and skin of rock and anything similar to
> prevent outside the hourglass. That damage is preventable. You CANNOT,
> however, play skin of steel, rolling with the punches at FOR or
> similar, that specify damage from a strike, to prevent it.
>
> You can play flesh of marble at any time, there are no timing
> restrictions (apart from in combat of course thus you could play
> this, take one, and prevent everything else for the remainder of
> combat...

Correct.

And (same day, different post):

[LSJ 20100526]

LSJ wrote:

On May 25, 9:49 pm, Drain <> wrote:
> So the OtH damage doesn't resolve immediately, thus preventing the non-
> acting player from playing the Flesh of Marble effectively?

The damage is applied, sure.

But, like any damage, it can be prevented.

If damage "resolved" (burned blood) immediately, then Skin of Rock,
say, could never be played.

And (same thread, later date):

[LSJ 20100706]

LSJ wrote:

On Jul 6, 6:19 am, Abdul alHazred <> wrote:
>

[massive snip]

> to boil this thread down and hopefully get some (as I feel unanswered)
> questioned straightened out I´ll try to phrase it in claims that can
> be rebutted or confirmed with one word answers and hope someone with
> better jyhad-fu than me can answer for me.
>
> - You can play horrid form (and similar cards) before preventing/
> healing damage from an OtH already played.

Yes.
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/7b4a0293b1e288be
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/3cc686fc638b5ad1
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/cf93fbdc27e1c3fd

> - You can play any (number) "only useable before range is determined"
> cards before preventing/healing damage from an OtH already played.

Yes.
(same URL)

> - You can play Skin of Night at inferior to change the nature of the
> damage from an OtH already played if that damage is aggravated before
> preventing/healing that damage.

Yes.

> - You can play Wolf Claws (and similar cards) before preventing/
> healing damage from an OtH already played.

Yes.

it makes perfect sense in case of prevent cards like skin of rock, which are preventing damage already done. Flash of marble is writeen in different way though ("for the remainder of combat when this vampire suffers a point of damage..")It is suggesting that it concerns "future" damage, done after this card is played. If we use logic mentioned by TryDeflectingThisGrapple I would say Skin of Rock will save you from Outside the Hourglass, while Flesh of Marble will not.

alek wrote:

it makes perfect sense in case of prevent cards like skin of rock, which are preventing damage already done. Flash of marble is writeen in different way though ("for the remainder of combat when this vampire suffers a point of damage..")It is suggesting that it concerns "future" damage, done after this card is played.

It's been ruled - in the rulings I quoted - that Flesh of Marble works fine. Flesh of Marble vs Hourglass is in the first quote, where LSJ finishes it with "Correct".


Flesh of Marble's text kicks in after damage is prevented - and you can, if you want, prevent the damage yourself, even if it would be prevented by Flesh of Marble, probably just to cycle cards. It works this way because of this bit of card text:

So: you're currently in the "prevent damage" step of damage handling. You play Flesh of Marble. You finish damage prevention. Flesh of Marble's text now sees you "suffer" a point of damage that you haven't prevented. So its text kicks in and does its thing.