sequencing of before range effects

I simplify here a lot. Combat follows same ruling as for example Antediluvian Awakening during untap phase: You can't proceed further before all effects have been fulfilled. You can, however, use any other effect and play cards that are playable during ongoing phase.

For example:

During untap phase you either burn vampire or pay one pool to Antediluvian Awakening. You can use vessel to get pool from a vampire or even burn last counter from a Web of Knives Recruit (who enters plae) and then burn that Web of Knives Recruit to Antediluvian. But you MUST either burn one pool or one vampire before you can leave untap phase.

Before range step is similar:

Acting player plays OtH inflicting 2 damage to a non-acting minion. Before you leave before range step, that 2 damage must be resolved (prevented or healed by burning blood). You don't need to resolve that damage immediately after OtH is played though. This allows you to play cards like Horrid Form or use effects like Sniper Rifle (if the non-acting minion is blocking) etc. Since you can play cards before you resolve damage from OtH, you can prevent OtH damage from sources like Horrid Form.

And:

You can play Alpha Glint after OtH is played, but you can't leave Before Range step before damage from OtH is resolved. At this point, you can even play Skin of Rock, Horrid Form or Flesh of Marble to prevent damage inflicted by OtH.

So:

You don't leave any combat phase (pre-range, range, choose strike, resolve strike, press, end of round, end of combat) before any of effects are not fulfilled in current phase.

KoRneeshon wrote:

Alright, maybe I got it, thanks for detailed explanation - but just to be sure:
-MethA plays OtH,
-damage is applied, but neither healed nor prevented yet,
-MethB plays / uses anything she wants that is usable "before range is determined" normally and it is resolved, bearing in mind that the damage needs to be handled before combat ends.
-damage is prevented or healed.

Almost, but not quite.

1) Meth A plays Outside the Hourglass.
2) We wait for 'as played' effects to cancel OtH.
3) The card resolves. This applies some damage to the opponent.
Now that OtH has resolved, we have some damage to handle. So we go to damage resolution.
4) Prevent damage step. During this step, Methuselahs can prevent the damage. But they can also play other effects. So, using the normal sequencing rules, I can play Skin of Rock, tap the Barrens, you can play Flesh of Marble, I can play Inner Essence (to gain a blood) etc. It is here that general hand cycling shenanigans can go on.
5) Heal damage / burn blood to prevent for all the unprevented damage.

KoRneeshon wrote:

Just one more puzzle:
-VampA (4 blood) plays OtH1,
-VampB (1 blood) plays OtH2,
Which of the following happens now?

I can't find precedent on this, or what happens if I play OtH during the damage resolution step of Weather Control's damage, or similar.

My gut would be to go with something like:

Vamp A plays OtH
Move to damage resolution
During the damage resolution from OtH's damage, Vamp B plays OtH
Now we handle both lots of damage in the same damage resolution window (like simultaneous strikes).


But in any event, the Alpha Glint precedent suggests that damage that is dealt in combat should be tidied up before combat ends.

Jussi wrote:

Acting player plays OtH inflicting 2 damage to a non-acting minion. Before you leave before range step, that 2 damage must be resolved (prevented or healed by burning blood). You don't need to resolve that damage immediately after OtH is played though. This allows you to play cards like Horrid Form or use effects like Sniper Rifle (if the non-acting minion is blocking) etc. Since you can play cards before you resolve damage from OtH, you can prevent OtH damage from sources like Horrid Form.

You are resolving the damage. You're in damage resolution and, specifically, the "choose to prevent damage" bit (before moving on to the healing/burning blood or life bit).

The difference is important because if you aren't resolving the damage, you can't play Skin of Rock (because out-and-out damage prevention effects are only playable during the prevent damage bit of damage resolution), and that might be important to you in terms of drawing a replacement card.

KoRneeshon wrote:

Just one more puzzle:
-VampA (4 blood) plays OtH1,
-VampB (1 blood) plays OtH2,
Which of the following happens now?
-OtH1 resolves first, sending VampB to torpor and ending combat (I guess not, since OtH2 stays unresolved that way),
-OtH1 resolves first, sending VampB to torpor, but combat cannot end b/c of unresolved OtH2; OtH2 is resolved, VampA burns 2 blood to heal the damage and combat is ended (more likely to be correct)
-they both resolve at the same time, like strikes, VampA has 2 blood left, VampB goes to torpor, combat is ended, (also likely the correct one in my eyes).

Here is the progression as I believe it occurs, in absurd detail, since trying to simplify hasn't been working. You may reference groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/2yQ77GFyI-o to see (some) of the rationale for this sequence.

Assume: Acing Minion is VampA, under PlayA control. PlayA has impulse at the start of combat.

VampA plays OtH on entering Prerange step of combat.

Since a card has been played, there is a cancellation window before any other "as played/announced" cards are offered. The impulse is passed among players for cancellation. None is played, a pending damage packet is created by the resolution of OtH.

Impulse returns to PlayA. VampA has opportunity to add additional "as played" combat cards to modify the OtH damage. Since these cards do not (currently) exist in the game, none are played but the process is still followed.

PlayA passes impulse to PlayB. (Remember this point in time, I'm going to come back to it with a weird scenario later). There are 2 damage pending.

Note: We're about to enter a situation close to a "FIFO que" as V:tES ever gets. What's actually happening is that resolution of some of these cards create immediate effects, some will create pending effect.

VampB may play pretty much anything pre-range card he has in hand. Vamp B wants to prevent the damage, but PlayB has no prevent in hand. PlayB taps Dreams for 2 cards (legal), draws his own Outside the Hourglass.

Believe it or not, the impulse passes back PlayA because PlayB created an effect (card draw). This happens whenever anything is done by anyone - the impulse always goes back to the acting player. Any attempt for PlayB to "dump" a series of cards can't really happen, there's always a chance for PlayA to slip something in between PlayB's cards. It's just usually such a poor tactical play that we don't use it.

PlayA passes. PlayB receives the impulse again.

VampB plays his own OtH to create a second PENDING damage packet, which VampA will have to deal with if we get through the current damage packet with continued combat. If VampB goes to torpor before that pending package can be addressed, well, combat ends with a hanging damage packet - just like if VampB's card were Carrion Crows instead of OtH. PlayB replaces OtH with Aura Reading.

Cancellation window opens, impulse passes between players, nothing played. VampB's OtH resolves to create his pending, outgoing packet of damage.

PlayA receives the impulse and passes to PlayB.

VampB has another prerange card and plays that Aura Reading in a desperate attempt to cycle into prevent. He draws Villein.

Cancellation window opens, impulse passes between players, nothing played. VampB's Aura Reading resolves for +2 hand size, PlayB draws Freak Drive and Force of Will.

Impulse passes back to PlayA, he passes back to PlayB.

VampB is out of pre-range effects and his controller is out of card drawing effects. Vamp B must now deal with his incoming damage before anything else can happen (remember: there is NO simulataneous strike/damage resolution step in pre-range).

VampB plays no prevention.

Implied step: Impulse passed between other players for opportunity to prevent damage for VampB (e.g., Martyr's Resilience). None played. Impulse remains with PlayB.

VampB burns 1 blood to heal first damage, goes to torpor from second.

Implied step: VampB has option to play "not going to torpor effects" like Undying Persistence. Then impulse passes around table for same effects, only granted from Minor Boon. None are played.

Combat ENDS. Proceed to end of round step, skipping any pending effects played during prerange before VampB went to torpor. Then progress to end combat step.

If you're in Ohio, it's at this point you will hear PlayA ask "Would you like to press?"
---

OK, that weird scenario I mentioned earlier: It would appear that VampA COULD play OtH to create a pending 2 damage outgoing packet, replacing with Aura Reading. PlayA gets the impulse back after the card is played, because that's how the impulse works. He doesn't/cant play "as announced" modifiers, but still has the impulse.

It's unclear to me if he can play his own Aura Reading before passing the impulse to PlayB to deal with the 2 pending damage. Or if he could play in in the middle of the VampB's damage prevention step, which amounts to the same thing, though with different timing.

This seems more supportable by timing guidlines, since card-drawing effects are legal in damage handling - so presumably that would appliy to both minions.

Where it might get sticky is Saulot plays the OtH, draws Weather Control and wants to cycle it too. Can he play it (since he has the impulse again)? Procedurally, dealing with the pending 2 damage seems like the right solution, but it seems conceptually wrong to allow VampB to play OtH as a cycle, but not all VampA to cycle a Weather Control. Might have to ask Floppy about this, just to clear up the procedure.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

Here is the progression as I believe it occurs, in absurd detail, since trying to simplify hasn't been working.

It's possible to simplify, but the issue is when that transgresses into things that aren't true, like the idea that you can play arbitrary effects in between play and resolution. (Which you can't.)

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

Since a card has been played, there is a cancellation window before any other "as played/announced" cards are offered. The impulse is passed among players for cancellation. None is played, a pending damage packet is created by the resolution of OtH.

Impulse returns to PlayA. VampA has opportunity to add additional "as played" combat cards to modify the OtH damage. Since these cards do not (currently) exist in the game, none are played but the process is still followed.

You've got things backwards here. The "pending damage packet" can only be created when the OtH resolves. That happens after you have left the "as played" window without a cancelation. You don't apply the effect, then go back into the "as played" window.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

VampB has another prerange card and plays that Aura Reading in a desperate attempt to cycle into prevent. He draws Villein.

Cancellation window opens, impulse passes between players, nothing played. VampB's Aura Reading resolves for +2 hand size, PlayB draws Freak Drive and Force of Will.

No, this is out of sequence. You don't replace the card until after cancellation.

Rulebook, wrote:

Some effects can cancel a card "as it is played." These effects (and effects that grant the ability to play them, like Forced Awakening) are the only effects allowed during the "as played" time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards comes after this time period.

There is a supportable argument for changing this on a practical level because players often replace quickly, and in some circumstances (e.g. JOL), it might happen automatically.

But that's not what the rules say. As things stand:

a) it doesn't work that way
b) if you replace before noticing a player is gesticulating wildly (or whatever), you back up, so that card isn't actually in your hand

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

VampB is out of pre-range effects and his controller is out of card drawing effects.

If you're going for excruciating detail, you also need the rest of the table to pass before closing this timing window, such as giving up the right to tap Mariel, Lady Thunder, or Frenzy. (As I have mentioned before, I cannot comprehend why Frenzy has been printed in quite as many sets as it has. I cannot recall ever seeing it played.)

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

Vamp B must now deal with his incoming damage before anything else can happen (remember: there is NO simulataneous strike/damage resolution step in pre-range).

Since the printing of Outside the Hourglass, I'm not sure we've ever had that explicitly ruled. You can't easily get into the same tangle with dueling Weather Controls. It's certainly supportable from previous rulings, but Outside the Hourglass is a very difficult card in terms of the way it's upset ruling stability on a number of points.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

VampB plays no prevention.

Implied step: Impulse passed between other players for opportunity to prevent damage for VampB (e.g., Martyr's Resilience). None played. Impulse remains with PlayB.

You've gone into damage prevention and given the impulse straight to Methuselah B. Technically, at the start of the damage prevention window, the impulse is with A, who then passes it to Meth B.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

Implied step: VampB has option to play "not going to torpor effects" like Undying Persistence. Then impulse passes around table for same effects, only granted from Minor Boon. None are played.

Again, in any timing window, the opportunity to play effects goes first to MethA (acting).

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

It's unclear to me if he can play his own Aura Reading before passing the impulse to PlayB to deal with the 2 pending damage. Or if he could play in in the middle of the VampB's damage prevention step, which amounts to the same thing, though with different timing.

So:

1) MethA plays OtH.
2) OtH isn't cancelled.
3) OtH takes effect.
4) Choose whether to prevent damage - but also other arbitrary effects.
5) Heal / burn blood etc.

In step 4), MethA (acting) is the first to have the impulse, as usual. so he can play Aura Reading. (Impulse->MethA.) He can tap the Barrens. (Impulse->MethA.) He can tap Dreams of the Sphinx. (Impulse->MethA.) He can play Horrid Form. (Impulse->MethA.) Then he chooses to pass, so MethB gets the opportunity to use cards/effects in step 4.

It's just in the vast majority of cases, if MethA is the one dealing the damage and MethB is the one taking the damage, MethA usually won't have another effect they feel a burning urge to play during damage resolution, and MethB does.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

Where it might get sticky is Saulot plays the OtH, draws Weather Control and wants to cycle it too. Can he play it (since he has the impulse again)?

Yes, that's no technically different to tapping The Barrens.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

Procedurally, dealing with the pending 2 damage seems like the right solution, but it seems conceptually wrong to allow VampB to play OtH as a cycle, but not all VampA to cycle a Weather Control. Might have to ask Floppy about this, just to clear up the procedure.

If I had a magic wand, I might be tempted to make a ruling by fiat that you can't play immediate damage-dealing effects during damage resolution. But there isn't a ruling around that says that.

James -

Fair enough, your timing corrections are accurate and noted.

I'm not convinced there has ever been a discrete "damage resolution" step in prerange. Lacking the defined (sub)step, I actually chose to not move the impulse from B to A before starting prevention - but there's no practical difference, so sure, A can have it.

We now have far too much detail on a cornercase situation and I THINK we agree on sequence and result.

OtH damage must be handled as a pending package, with the CARD resolved after the "as played" window closes, actual damage handled (many would say resolved, I choose handled) later. This must be true, since PlayA has a continued (but largely unused) opportunity to dump pre-range effects before PlayB even gets to consider handling the packet.

It also appears you've reconsidered that gut feeling from earlier, which is why I started the overly long last post.

We agree that the end result is B goes to torpor in pre-range empty of blood, and A takes no damage, yes?

At least, that's what happens until there's some new ruling on non-sequential pre-range damage resolution. And we don't have to worry about first-strike prerange damage....cause it's not a strike.