sequencing of before range effects

I was really trying to NOT drop us into this rabbit hole of convoluted "can be placed during subphase X of step y" when it's not needed to specifically answer a question. I guess I failed.

Alek, I'll risk oversimplification again, just to describe (what I believe) is the easiest way to answer your specific point on Flesh of Marble.

1) There is a discrete timeframe between the announcement of any effect and its resolution.
2) Things can happen in that time frame, but you don't interrupt the ongong process to start another process. This is where James discusses card cycling effects.
3) "Remainder of timeframe" effects played inside that window are immediately applied to everything that hasn't been completely handled by that time.

Examples:
Claws of the Dead modifies an already-declared (but unresolved) strike as long as it is played before moving to strike resolution.
Flesh of Marble prevents already-incoming (but unprevented/unhealed) damage in the pre range step.
Lost in Crowds changes the stealth property of an already-declared (but not resolved) action before the action is resolved.

What you CAN'T do is modify something once you have given its target the go-ahead to handle it.

You cannot play Claws of the Dead after the opposing minion passes prevention, because he is already in the strike resolution phase at this time.
You cannot increase a bleed after the target has started to lost pool (you've passed the impulse with no modiciation, he passed the impulse with no bounce, the bleed resolves).

You fully define a package of whatever....then hand it over to be addressed in resolution. This is what strict adherence to the impulse is intended to control.

Yes it's a simplification. Yes, there are places where you get additional opportunities to modify crap, effectively restarting processes (bounced bleeds). But the generalization addresses most situations and you can catalog exceptions from there if needed.

So,

Outside the hourglass is played by an opposing minion.

Cards like skin of night, jau vema, pentinent resilience(outferior) and adaptability can be played when impulse passes. So can the obvious group of "prevent blah of blah" cards that exclude "from a strike":
Soak, basic rwtp, hidden strength, indomitability, unflinching persistance, sideslip, glancing blow, oitferior armor of caines fury, etc.

Then the group being debated is pres that ataxk prevention, right?
Skin of the adder, typhnic beast, valeren armor of caines fury, horrid form, apparition, mythic form , etc

Uncontested, standing things like: ablative skin, armor of terra, heart of darkness, flak jacket, kevlar vest, lodin/chaundice special, etc
Can stop OtOG damage, right?

After damage is taken, assuming its agg and or torps(very rare that it doesnt) is when unead persistance, undying tenacity fet played.

Is that where we are?

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Then the group being debated is pres that ataxk prevention, right?
Skin of the adder, typhnic beast, valeren armor of caines fury, horrid form, apparition, mythic form , etc

Given there is an explicit ruling on Horrid Form, why do you think it's being debated?

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

Alek, I'll risk oversimplification again, just to describe (what I believe) is the easiest way to answer your specific point on Flesh of Marble.

1) There is a discrete timeframe between the announcement of any effect and its resolution.
2) Things can happen in that time frame, but you don't interrupt the ongong process to start another process. This is where James discusses card cycling effects.

No, you're somewhat confused here.

In general, cards resolve when they are played, with no gap - except for cards which interrupt the play somehow. (e.g. Psyche! vs a Rotschreck, or Direct Intervention vs a Conditioning) There isn't a general gap or sub-process. There isn't a step in you playing Elder Impersonation - failing my block attempt - where I can sneak in and play some intercept with my, in this hypothetical example, one-and-only-minion in order to cycle the intercept uselessly. so I have an Enhanced Senses in my hand and I slip it into the (non-existent) gap of your "block fails" from Elder Impersonation. (This isn't how it works.) V:TES has historically resisted that sort of 'interrupt stack' or 'instant stack', as could be found in early-ish Magic.

However, when damage-dealing effects resolve, their effect is to apply some damage to you. Their effect isn't to make you burn the blood (or life). You then move into a damage resolution phase, in which you have all sorts of opportunities to play cards and effects. And the ruling is that in that damage resolution phase, you can play any effects you want. When it's a damage resolution phase from a strike, it's pretty uncontroversial - there aren't many other effects you can play there that are likely to confuse people, so it's mostly just things like "Tap the Barrens" and "Play Skin of Rock". There aren't many effects that you could just cycle for giggles. When you're still before range, however, you can play other cards that are playable before range (because yuo're still before range).

So:
- the effect still resolved when played
- now you have damage to handle, so you open a damage resolution phase
- in that step, you can play damage prevention effects, but also things like The Barrens, Aura Reading, Flesh of Marble, or whatever else.


This doesn't give you carte-blanche to play any effect you like whenever someone else plays a card. Amongst other things, that would screw up sequencing rules because you would always be able to wedge card into this (non-existent) gap. Such as, for example, being able to play my Carrion Crows for free by playing it in the (non-existent) gap in resolution of superior Terror Frenzy, before the effect of increasing my card costs happens. (This isn't how it works.) It's only that handling damage applies an effect of damage, which then opens a damage resolution window, that causes it.


This is also what causes Steal Blood and Strike: Punch You In The Face to go off at the same time (normal strike resolution), but for Steal Blood to sort-of go first. The effect of Steal Blood is to steal the blood, so you take the counters. The effect of strike: hand damage is to apply my strength to you as damage. So, simultaneously:

- you take two blood from me, moving two counters
- I apply one damage to you, but this does not cause you to burn blood

Now we move to damage handling:
- And (assuming you don't prevent it) you burn the blood, as appropriate.


So if you're on full blood and steal 2 blood from me, you get the blood and it immediately drains off. Then you handle the damage from me, and end up on one less blood than your capacity.

When you're still before range, however, you can play other cards that are playable before range (because yuo're still before range).

So:
- the effect still resolved when played
- now you have damage to handle, so you open a damage resolution phase
- in that step, you can play damage prevention effects, but also things like The Barrens, Aura Reading, Flesh of Marble, or whatever else.

assuming it's true, what's the differense between playing and resolving Aura Reading/tapping and resolving barrens effect in this damage resoulution phase and tapping and resolving Maman Boumba special during the same phase.
If there is a window for non-prevent cards/ effects like Aura Reading it should be the same for "before range" combat ends effects.

alek wrote:

assuming it's true, what's the differense between playing and resolving Aura Reading/tapping and resolving barrens effect in this damage resoulution phase and tapping and resolving Maman Boumba special during the same phase.

If there is a window for non-prevent cards/ effects like Aura Reading it should be the same for "before range" combat ends effects.

You can use Maman, yes. Or Elysium, or Mariel.

However, there is an explicit ruling covering this situation - damage must have been handled before combat can end. The damage doesn't just vanish (it's been applied to you).

[LSJ 20100709]

LSJ wrote:

> > If the vampire targeted by OtH plays Alpha Glint before resolving
> > damage does he still have to. Is not combat over?
>
> IANALSJ, but it seems to me that damage must be resolved (one way or
> another) for combat to end.
Correct.