sequencing of before range effects

Wait - I'm new, and this might be a dumb question, but -

Does that prevent the playing of Alpha Glint, because there's "unresolved damage", or can you still play it, and have the effect...

...well, I dunno. Does the effect fizzle ("but at least I'm cycling cards!"), or does it sort of "hang" there, waiting for the "unresolved damage" to resolve, and thus end the combat?

ThatGuyThere wrote:

Does that prevent the playing of Alpha Glint, because there's "unresolved damage", or can you still play it, and have the effect...

The precedent that's lurking around here is a somewhat corner-case ruling on Weather Control, which has repeatedly implied that if a "combat ends" effect goes off, WC's damage still happens, in combat. (It's mentioned in the ruling I quoted, I just didn't paste that bit. See below for some caution about it.) The apparent extension of that is that a pre-range "combat ends" effect is playable, but the applied damage from Hourglass is wrapped up before you leave combat.


The alternatives would be quite weird, because you'd get into a situation where I could tap Elysium and not pre-empt a pre-played-but-as-yet-unsequenced Weather Control, but somehow manage to pre-empt an already in progress Outside the Hourglass effect.


(If you want to read the Weather Control ruling in detail, bear in mind two things:

1) Card text on Weather Control has changed since, and the precise timing of when the card is played has changed, though the separate damage effect is still "before range"

2) The effects of sequencing weren't quite so hammered out in 1997, so the fact that the acting Methuselah can't pass the impulse when she has an effect to sequence wasn't at the forefront of anyone's brain. But the issue can still 'easily' occur if the non-acting vampire plays Weather Control, passing the impulse back to the acting Methuselah, who then plays Alpha Glint/taps Elysium etc. Or if the acting Methuselah played Weather Control followed by Alpha Glint before announcing the sequencing of the WC damage effect.)

jamesatzephyr wrote:

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

Alek, I'll risk oversimplification again, just to describe (what I believe) is the easiest way to answer your specific point on Flesh of Marble.

1) There is a discrete timeframe between the announcement of any effect and its resolution.
2) Things can happen in that time frame, but you don't interrupt the ongong process to start another process. This is where James discusses card cycling effects.

No, you're somewhat confused here.

Sigh, not really. The window might be very small - as in the cancellation effect you choose to call a special case. I simply consider it part of the normal process, because I believe systematically introducing "exceptions" is more confusing than saying the window always exists.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

Alek, I'll risk oversimplification again, just to describe (what I believe) is the easiest way to answer your specific point on Flesh of Marble.

1) There is a discrete timeframe between the announcement of any effect and its resolution.
2) Things can happen in that time frame, but you don't interrupt the ongong process to start another process. This is where James discusses card cycling effects.

No, you're somewhat confused here.

Sigh, not really.

No, really you are. If you're referring to the "cancellation" window for cards as played, then when you say this:
you're simply wrong. You cannot use arbitrary card cycling effects in the "as played" window.

Rulebook, wrote:

Some effects can cancel a card "as it is played." These effects (and effects that grant the ability to play them, like Forced Awakening) are the only effects allowed during the "as played" time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards comes after this time period.

I believe the aim was to simplify the (annoying) process of card cancellation, in that you can only cancel a card with the cards right there in your hand. The addition of wake-like effects to this window was somehow controversial, but it's there in the rules now.


Regardless, when you say:

This is emphatically not where I'm talking about card cycling effects. I'm talking about card cycling effects (and other effects) in the entire separate damage resolution window, that occurs after you apply a damage effect.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

I simply consider it part of the normal process, because I believe systematically introducing "exceptions" is more confusing than saying the window always exists.

In which case, you're simply incorrect about what can happen during that window.

What I am fairly sure Darby was trying to suggest was:

1) You play and announce a card.
2) There exists a gap or gaps after the card is played successfully where people may play other cards and effects.
3) The effects of the card are fully resolved later.

He is saying that your 'card cycling to get prevent in hand and played' option falls in Part 2.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

What I am fairly sure Darby was trying to suggest was:

1) You play and announce a card.
2) There exists a gap or gaps after the card is played successfully where people may play other cards and effects.
3) The effects of the card are fully resolved later.

He is saying that your 'card cycling to get prevent in hand and played' option falls in Part 2.

If that is what is being said, it is emphatically not correct.

The 'gap' that exists between play and the effect being applied - for interrupting it with DI or whatever - is not a place where you can use card cycling effects.

The only effects you can play then are cards which say they go in the "as played" window, or Wake-like cards. And, because it sometimes catches people out, I should point out that cards that actually untap you are not considered Wake-like cards for this purpose. It was a moderately weird ruling at the time, but it's now an explicit part of the rules. This is as per the rulebook section I quoted earlier:

Rulebook, wrote:

Some effects can cancel a card "as it is played." These effects (and effects that grant the ability to play them, like Forced Awakening) are the only effects allowed during the "as played" time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards comes after this time period.

Here is how a non-damage-dealing effect works, say, playing Terror Frenzy superior.

A: I play Terror Frenzy at superior with Gitane St Clair, costing 1 blood.
This is the "as played" window. Wait for "as a card is played" type effects, or Wakes. You cannot tap The Barrens at this time, per 1.6.1.
Nothing happens. (No-one plays DI, say.)
A: The effect is applied to the opponent, because the card has been played without being cancelled etc.


Here is how, say, Rotschreck works:

A: I play Rotschreck on Anneke.
This is the as played window. You cannot use card cycling effects at this time, just "as played" type effects and Wakes.
Nothing happens.
A: Rotschreck takes effect.
At this point, as the effect is being applied, Anneke might play Psyche! or Telepathic Tracking in order to interrupt the effect. They allow themselves to be played then, by their card text specifying their timing.



Here is how an instant damage-dealing effect works, like, say, Pulled Fangs. (Deliberately not picking a 'before range' example.)

A: I play Pulled Fangs on Lucretia, to do the stuff it does to her.
This is the as played window. You cannot use card cycling effects here, per 1.6.1. Wait for "as played" or Wake effects.
Nothing happens.
A: Pulled Fangs takes effect. The effect of Pulled Fangs is to inflict 1 damage to you (and put the card on you etc.). Pulled Fangs' effect is now done. But there's some unresolved damage hanging around. So...
We now move into a damage resolution phase which, like all damage resolution phases, has a step where you can prevent damage etc., and a step where you then handle the remaining damage.
During the 'prevent damage' phase, you can now play - say - Skin of Rock or Skin of Night. But, per the 2004 ruling, you don't have to restrict yourself to playing only damage prevention effects - and strictly, inferior Skin of Night isn't even one of them. So while in the 'choose whether to prevent damage' bit of resolution, you can now tap The Barrens or use Dreams of the Sphinx to fish for Skin of Rock. This is after step 3 in your list. The effect was to apply the damage to you. The window for card cycling is happening after your step 3.

Note that as a totally irrelevant effect, you could play Nosferatu Putrescence in the 'choose to prevent damage' window, in order to fish for some better effect. (It's one of the few cards with no major explicit or implicit timing restrictions in combat. But it's also a horrible card. And note that if you were to play it during damage resolution of a strike, say, the effect of the strike was to work out how much damage to apply to the opponent and apply it, and that's already happened. So Nosferatu Putrescence played in the damage resolution window won't retro-actively deduct strength - we've already worked out the total damage and it applied to me. If you played it before the strike took effect, that would work. But not if you've waited until damage resolution - such as, say, tapping The Barrens in damage resolution hoping to find a Skin of Rock, drawing into Nosferatu Putrescence which is in your deck in some draft game, and then dropping the Nosferatu Putrescence then.)


The Pulled Fangs version works exactly the same for Outside the Hourglass, except that when you are in the "choose to prevent damage" window, you can play other "before range is determined" effects - because you are still "before range is determined". This is still after your step 3, because the effect of Outside the Hourglass (applying some damage to me) has to have been done before we move into a damage resolution thing. You cannot use arbitrary card cycling effects in the 'as played' window, between play and effect.