sequencing of before range effects

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

I'm not convinced there has ever been a discrete "damage resolution" step in prerange.

It's not a pre-range thing. It's just how you handle damage. Whenever you have damage to handle, you go into damage resolution, letting you play combat cards (if in combat), or burn Surge counters, or whatever.

If no-one deals damage pre-range, there's no damage resolution window. Just like in most actions, there's never a damage resolution window (since they don't inflict damage), but there is with - say - Horseshoe.

Its coming-into-existence during pre-range is confirmed in the RTR from 2004: www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR120204.txt

That wrote:

The damage resolution phase does not preclude other effects (like tapping a
Barrens, for example). You may tap the Barrens to attempt to draw into more
damage prevention, or play Aura Reading when Weather Control damage is
applied (to attempt to draw Skin of Night if a Dawn Operation is in play,
for example). You still cannot "interrupt" damage handling, however (you
cannot burn two blood to heal and then use some effect to gain blood before
burning another blood to heal the remaining third point of damage, for
example).

That is, Aura Reading is playable in the "damage resolution phase" that comes from Weather Control's damage effect.

Damage -> damage resolution phase. No damage -> no damage resolution phase.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

OtH damage must be handled as a pending package, with the CARD resolved after the "as played" window closes,

That's how all cards resolve. (Except for those with split play/resolution, like strikes.)

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

actual damage handled (many would say resolved, I choose handled) later. This must be true, since PlayA has a continued (but largely unused) opportunity to dump pre-range effects before PlayB even gets to consider handling the packet.

No. You have damage to handle. So you go into a damage resolution phase, by the 2004 RTR. This is handling damage, and it happens immediately after the effect of applying the damage.

In the prevent damage step of damage resolution (which you are now in), you can play effects such as Skin of Rock. You can use effects such as tapping The Barrens. And you can also play other arbitrary effects, if they are legal - such as playing Aura Reading.

This is all happening in the damage resolution window that springs into existence, as explicitly spelled out in the 2004 RTR.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

We agree that the end result is B goes to torpor in pre-range empty of blood, and A takes no damage, yes?

In the situation where both vampires have applied a damage dealing effect to each other, such as both of them playing Outside the Hourglass? No, we absolutely do not agree on that.

The damage has been applied. There are no existing rulings that cause it to vanish after being applied. The Alpha Glint precedent implies that if there is pending damage applied in combat - such as Outside the Hourglass, followed by Alpha Glint in the "prevent damage" step - you wrap up the resolution of that damage before combat is allowed to end. I see no reason, based on existing rulings, why mutual OtH play would cause damage to vanish.

Fine, we'll agree to disagree. (Well, at least I will....)

that's exacly what I want to ask:

The damage has been applied. There are no existing rulings that cause it to vanish after being applied. The Alpha Glint precedent implies that if there is pending damage applied in combat - such as Outside the Hourglass, followed by Alpha Glint in the "prevent damage" step - you wrap up the resolution of that damage before combat is allowed to end. I see no reason, based on existing rulings, why mutual OtH play would cause damage to vanish.

Pascal, could we have a clear decision on this topic?

alek wrote:

that's exacly what I want to ask:

The damage has been applied. There are no existing rulings that cause it to vanish after being applied. The Alpha Glint precedent implies that if there is pending damage applied in combat - such as Outside the Hourglass, followed by Alpha Glint in the "prevent damage" step - you wrap up the resolution of that damage before combat is allowed to end. I see no reason, based on existing rulings, why mutual OtH play would cause damage to vanish.

Pascal, could we have a clear decision on this topic?

Just to move things along a bit while we're waiting, there are several obvious options:

1) Disallow playing a damage dealing effect in the 'prevent damage' window. This would be a ruling by fiat (e.g. not just a clarification of existing precedent), but would be a reasonable one in order to simplify things.

2) Handle it "simultaneously". This is how multiple damage from a single Weather Control is handled.

[LSJ 20090617]

LSJ wrote:

<<yAn>> wrote:
> Who gets to decide the timings for damage done in combat that involve
> a minion with Ilomba?
>
> 1) Simultaneous damage from a single source - The acting minion,
> Minion A (1 blood left and with Ilomba), enters combat with Minion B
> (with [tha]). Minion B plays basic Weather Control before range is
> determined. Does A burn (takes 1 damage from Weather Control and burns
> from Ilomba card text) or or go into torpor (burns 1 blood from Ilomba
> card text and then takes 1 damage from Weather Control)? Would the
> scenario be different if Minion A is not the acting minion?

The damage is simultaneous, so it is handled simultaneously. Minion A can burn a
blood or life for the damage done to Ilomba first or may burn a blood or life
for the damage done to xerself first.

3) Handle it strictly sequentially, so effect one goes first, then effect two goes after. Per the Alpha Glint ruling, this would appear to have to be wrapped up inside combat.


4) As 3, but have the damage dealt after combat - making it much harder to prevent. This would seem to violate the Alpha Glint precedent.


5) Have the damage from the second effect just disappear. Which would seem to violate established precedent that once damage has been inflicted (the second effect resolved, dealing the damage), you handle it. I can't find any reason that damage just vanishes, once the effect has resolved.

Not feeling it on 3-5.

We dont have a "stack" and, while we plainly have issues with defining when certain things happen in conjunction with certain others, i think we have an "almost good" thing going with timing order in combat.

It makes sense to keep it woth weather control and alpha glint rulings for the sake of coherency.

Honestly, and im not even remotely joking here, a "chart" for conmbat timing may be appropriate.

Pre range, dividex by section and whats played when, determine range, didvided, after range pre strike, divided, choose strikes, divided, strike resolution divided, after strikes divided, press, divided, end of round/combat divided.

Would that help? Its plain most of us get the rules and are amply ready to squabble over semantics (very much including myself here) but 2 months into our learing curve, wouldnt this help folks pick up on combat better?

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Honestly, and im not even remotely joking here, a "chart" for conmbat timing may be appropriate.

See: vekn.net/complete-rules-reference

If there are clarifications you'd like to suggest for any steps in it, suggesting them here/to Pascal may help.