sequencing of before range effects

Yes, but if:
-MethA plays card X,
-MethB plays a card Y before the X effects are applied
-then MethA, as acting, gets the opportunity to play another card, per rules.

First thing: it creates serious sequencing mess.
And worse - if the logic above is legit, then ater eeach card played that way, you have nested timeframe to repeat the process:
-MethA plays X, but effects are not applied,
-MethB plays Y, just to cycle, but its effects are also posponed, because
-MethA plays Z to cycle in hope to somehow counter Y,
-but Z effects are not applied, becaus MethB plays U to cycle...
It could go on. And after it's finished, you need someone who keeps track of the order of cards played to start resolving them. Storm of timeouts expected.

So, the real question is, what level of "before ranges" are really legal to play ater OtH:
-strict damage prevention (seems obvious and logical),
-Barrens/Dreams of the Sphinx (b/c the're in play already, you can always use them in the middle of almost anything),
-Horrid Form/Flesh of Marble (a bit less obvious, but OK for me),
-treat agg as normal - a bit questionable; if the dmg from OtH is aggravated already - OK, if not - would be barely OK-ish, but oh well...
-Aura Reading - questionable - it's for cycling purposes, yes, but will require its own resolution to do that cycling, which starts to get messy,
-other "befores" like Torn Signpost - even more questionable than AR above, since they do not come close to dealing with OtH or its damage, but require resolution on their own (setting strength to 2 or 3 in this case),
-Alpha Glint/Arboretum - total mess; after them, can I play Psyche? what about the damage from OtH?

Be brave, Pascal, this is the toughest thing I've ever met in my V:tES rulings journey

Cheers,
KoRni

KoRneeshon wrote:

Yes, but if:
-MethA plays card X,
-MethB plays a card Y before the X effects are applied
-then MethA, as acting, gets the opportunity to play another card, per rules.

Card Y would need to be an "as played" card.
And any card that MethA played - still in the "as played" window - would need to be another "as played" card. (Or a wake card, as per 1.6.1.)

This isn't typically that controversial. For example:

I take an out of turn action with Enkil Cog or Madness Network. (Simply because it makes what follows easier.)
I play some controversial action modifier.
In the "as played" window, someone plays Direct Intervention.
In the "as played" window, I play Sudden Reversal to cancel that DI.

And obviously, you can chain extra effects onto that, such as having another Methuselah play Wash on my Sudden, and another Methuselah then playing Sudden Reversal on the DI that had just been reprieved from being cancelled. Obviously, you can run into issues with Methuselahs not being able to play multiple OOT masters if going this route, but there are other ways of cancelling cards.

KoRneeshon wrote:

And worse - if the logic above is legit, then ater eeach card played that way, you have nested timeframe to repeat the process:
-MethA plays X, but effects are not applied,
-MethB plays Y, just to cycle, but its effects are also posponed, because
-MethA plays Z to cycle in hope to somehow counter Y,
-but Z effects are not applied, becaus MethB plays U to cycle...

Except for the specific cards that can go in the "as played" window, it's not correct.

In general terms, when you play a card, you resolve the card - except that a few cards (typically wakes and cancellation cards) can interrupt in the "as played" window. You don't create a stack of effects that resolve front-to-back.

KoRneeshon wrote:

It could go on. And after it's finished, you need someone who keeps track of the order of cards played to start resolving them. Storm of timeouts expected.

This is probably why LSJ strongly resisted creating such a system for V:TES!




The issue is that resolving a damage dealing effect applies damage to the minion, it doesn't actually cause them to burn the blood. You then get a damage resolution window where you can play any legal effect. After you've decided not to prevent damage (or prevented as much as you want etc.) and play no further cards/effects, you move into the bit of damage resolution where you heal, burn blood/life etc.


Thus, after you have played OtH and it has resolved and it has applied damage to me (the effect of the card), we move into a damage resolution phase where any legal effect can be played.

KoRneeshon wrote:

-Aura Reading - questionable - it's for cycling purposes, yes, but will require its own resolution to do that cycling, which starts to get messy,

Not even remotely questionable. It's one of the cards explicitly referred to, by name, in the 2004 RTR.

RTR wrote:

The damage resolution phase does not preclude other effects (like tapping a
Barrens, for example). You may tap the Barrens to attempt to draw into more
damage prevention, or play Aura Reading when Weather Control damage is
applied (to attempt to draw Skin of Night if a Dawn Operation is in play,
for example).

KoRneeshon wrote:

-other "befores" like Torn Signpost - even more questionable than AR above, since they do not come close to dealing with OtH or its damage, but require resolution on their own (setting strength to 2 or 3 in this case),

Requiring resolution of their own is not a problem. How do you think Skin of Rock works? You're in "prevent damage". You play Skin of Rock. No-one cancels it. It resolves, preventing 2 damage.

Cards are played and resolved all the time in this window.

KoRneeshon wrote:

-Alpha Glint/Arboretum - total mess; after them, can I play Psyche?

Combat's about to end, so why wouldn't you be able to play Psyche?

KoRneeshon wrote:

what about the damage from OtH?

Per the earlier quoted ruling on Alpha Glint:

That wrote:

> > If the vampire targeted by OtH plays Alpha Glint before resolving
> > damage does he still have to. Is not combat over?
>
> IANALSJ, but it seems to me that damage must be resolved (one way or
> another) for combat to end.
Correct.

Combat does not end until the damage has been resolved. Psyche! isn't playable until combat is about to end. So, logically, you handle the damage, then combat ends (is about to end) and you interrupt that with Psyche! or Telepathic Tracking or whatever.

Hey James,
Not to be too harsh a troll on this, but why is it that Carrion Crows vs Combat Ending, won't follow this structure as well?

Alright, maybe I got it, thanks for detailed explanation - but just to be sure:
-MethA plays OtH,
-damage is applied, but neither healed nor prevented yet,
-MethB plays / uses anything she wants that is usable "before range is determined" normally and it is resolved, bearing in mind that the damage needs to be handled before combat ends.
-damage is prevented or healed.

Just one more puzzle:
-VampA (4 blood) plays OtH1,
-VampB (1 blood) plays OtH2,
Which of the following happens now?
-OtH1 resolves first, sending VampB to torpor and ending combat (I guess not, since OtH2 stays unresolved that way),
-OtH1 resolves first, sending VampB to torpor, but combat cannot end b/c of unresolved OtH2; OtH2 is resolved, VampA burns 2 blood to heal the damage and combat is ended (more likely to be correct)
-they both resolve at the same time, like strikes, VampA has 2 blood left, VampB goes to torpor, combat is ended, (also likely the correct one in my eyes).

Regards

<removable garbage, sorry>

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

but why is it that Carrion Crows vs Combat Ending, won't follow this structure as well?

Primarily because you never reach the time at which Carrion Crows' damage effect could go off (normal strikes) - combat has ended. Just like Strike: Combat Ends also stops Drawing Out the Beast dealing damage to me, because we never get to the correct timing window. Ditto, tapping the Elysium means that Carrion Crows' damage effect never happens.

If you think of combat as a series of steps, which looks vaguely like:

a - Pre-range
b - Range
c - Post-range (IG)
d - Choose Strike (including strike modifiers)
e - S:CE
f - First Strike
g - Normal Strike
h - Additional Strike declaration
i - Repeat: Choose Strike, S:CE, First Strike, Normal Strike for every additional strike pair
j - Press
k - End of Round
l - End of Combat / Go to next round

Combat ended at step e. So things in step g never happen.

The difference with Weather Control vs Elysium is that both go off in step a, and there's an already resolved effect (the play of Weather Control) that says that the minion will take damage in step a. Weather Control is slightly weird in that playing the card doesn't immediately deal the damage, even on the first round. (FWIW, I personally very likely wouldn't have ruled this way in 1997, but it's the way it works.)


However, similar logic applied to the RTR 2002-MAY-01 ruling on the handling of "combat ends" effects and interrupts, in the distinction between interrupting an effect that is in the process of resolving vs an already played and resolved effect. www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR512.txt This isn't explicitly spelled out in the RTR, but I had - at the time - a detailed discussion with LSJ about the whole Rotschreck/Combat Ends effect, and I explicitly mentioned the precedent of Weather Control when talking about the distinction between Rotschreck (end-combat+do-something) and effects like Undead Persistence (pre-existing effect that will trigger).