Marthe Dizier and retimed Psyche!

Ankha wrote:

Psyche!
Type: Combat
Requires: Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?

That would probably be fine. But since we only ever have one combat going on at once - there's no mechanism in the game for having two going on at once - a new combat implicitly ends the first one.

I don't think we should assume that every player would know the esoteric mechanisms you outline in the quote above. The bottom line is the card text on Psyche! is confusing. It should be changed for clarity.

I can't see the point that is confusing. You don't have to know that two combats can't take place at the same time.

Combat is "about to end"? Psyche! can be played.
What does it do? It starts a new combat when the round is over. (cardtext)

So you play Psyche!, you play other effects that are played at the end of the round. When you're done, a new combat starts. I can't see where the combat would overlap.

"after this round, combat ends". Since the combat is already about to end, it's redundant.

What did I miss?

You didn't miss anything. I'm just pointing out that Psyche!, as currently stated, seems to skip over a step in the complete rules reference (I understand that it actually does not). See the first post in this thread for the confusion this can create.

The thing I never understood about Psyche! is why "combat ends" was never added to the text. The 1998 RTR clarification was made to clarify that the current combat ends before starting a new one (right? I'm assuming that's why this clarification was made. Please correct me if I'm wrong). Why not just add "combat ends" to the card text?

Here is the 1998 RTR clarification: The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card is a combat card. [RTR 19980928]

TwoRazorReign wrote:

The thing I never understood about Psyche! is why "combat ends" was never added to the text. The 1998 RTR clarification was made to clarify that the current combat ends before starting a new one (right? I'm assuming that's why this clarification was made. Please correct me if I'm wrong). Why not just add "combat ends" to the card text?[RTR 19980928]

1) It is redundant, since you already play the card when combat is about to end. There is no need to end it twice.
2) "Combat ends" does not do what you think it does. It does not skip to after combat, it skips to the end of round/end of combat phase. How can you do that when you already are in that phase?

The RTR clarification was there mainly to make the card playable. Otherwise, how are you supposed to play a combat card out of combat?

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

And I beg to differ on your point above. VTES is exactly like that, there are plenty of precedents for thing getting skipped in this game. Consider:

Ousting under Last Stand with a Temptation of Power that should be paid for in your discard phase. You don't pay beacause the discard pahse is skipped.)

Which isn't the point I was making. Something that goes off in your discard phase goes off in your discard phase. The point I was making was about phrases like "end of turn" and "end of combat" and "end of action" and "end of round" and "end of...". You can tell I was talking about this because I said:

The combat ended, so the round ended, and it doesn't matter if that's because someone tapped Elysium, someone played Pocket Out of Time, someone played Alpha Glint, someone played Majesty, Muddles sent his opponent to torpor through damage at first strike, someone played Coma at normal strike, someone played Autonomic Mastery, someone played Disarm, someone torporized their opponent with Pulled Fangs, or the round just naturally ended.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?

That would probably be fine. But since we only ever have one combat going on at once - there's no mechanism in the game for having two going on at once - a new combat implicitly ends the first one.

I don't think we should assume that every player would know the esoteric mechanisms you outline in the quote above. The bottom line is the card text on Psyche! is confusing. It should be changed for clarity.

You appear to be assuming I'm opposing your suggestion. I didn't. I merely pointed out that the card already works like that, even with its current wording.

I have no objection to card text being clearer.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?

That would probably be fine. But since we only ever have one combat going on at once - there's no mechanism in the game for having two going on at once - a new combat implicitly ends the first one.

I don't think we should assume that every player would know the esoteric mechanisms you outline in the quote above. The bottom line is the card text on Psyche! is confusing. It should be changed for clarity.

You appear to be assuming I'm opposing your suggestion. I didn't. I merely pointed out that the card already works like that, even with its current wording.

I have no objection to card text being clearer.

I apologize if I misunderstood this, but it seemed like the prevailing attitude of your previous post was that if one followed the rules of combat logically, then one can distinguish what the card text on Psyche! really means. I think a lot of players may not understand the rules enough to follow the same logic as you, and those players will use the complete rules reference as a resource instead. And for those players, it's like "huh, so does combat end or what?"