Marthe Dizier and retimed Psyche!

Because the text on Psyche! does not explicitly say that combat ends. It says "after this round, begin another combat." This could be interpreted as going from step E to step A, thus skipping step F. All I am saying is that this is easily confusing to somebody who is not as knowledgeable as you, an expert, about combat mechanics.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

This could be interpreted as going from step E to step A, thus skipping step F.

This is precisely the issue.

1) Combat cards have been know to create situations where combat steps are skipped. S:CE skipping normal strike resolution, additional strikes and presses as a prime example, though skipping set range also sometimes hsappes. At any rate, there are clear precedents for skipping steps/ I've never seen an explicit ruling that "end of round" or "end of combat" cannot be skipped.....which is why I started this thread.

2) Round ends and combat ends are separate combat steps, per CRR. Until today, I hadn't noticed that CRR explicitly called out the S:CE advances to step E, though it's how I've interpreted S:CE for quite a while. It's good to see that has been included.

3) Cards typically resolve in the step in which they are played, barring explicit text. Following that rule of thumb, one could (and should) reason that Psyche!, played in the EoR step, immediately jumps from the outline step "E" to step "A." Yes, one could say Psyches! resolution is to que up a combat following the end of this one, but that's not the language present on the card, which says to start a new combat after this round (not this combat).

In the end, I'm not suggesting that the cards should work any differently than they do (S:CE goes to step E, combat can't end without a round ending and a second combat can't start without the previous one ending). It helps that the functions remain mostly consistent with part function (the one exception I can think of is Psyche! now double-replacing under Infernal Pursuit, but still dropping when the next combat initiates).

I do take exception to the thought that cards which say playable at the end of a round being played in anything other than step E (which happen in any and every combat round). And I think the new Psyche! could be worded in a fashion which more accurate describes the intended sequence of events

Non-existant user wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

The thing I never understood about Psyche! is why "combat ends" was never added to the text. The 1998 RTR clarification was made to clarify that the current combat ends before starting a new one (right? I'm assuming that's why this clarification was made. Please correct me if I'm wrong). Why not just add "combat ends" to the card text?[RTR 19980928]

1) It is redundant, since you already play the card when combat is about to end. There is no need to end it twice.
2) "Combat ends" does not do what you think it does. It does not skip to after combat, it skips to the end of round/end of combat phase. How can you do that when you already are in that phase?

The RTR clarification was there mainly to make the card playable. Otherwise, how are you supposed to play a combat card out of combat?

1. "When combat is about to end" does not mean "when combat ends." It means "before combat ends." Adding combat ends, in my opinion, would therefore not be redundant.
2. There is no "end of round/end of combat" phase. There is an "end of round" phase and an "end of combat" phase. See steps E and F of the complete rules reference. Adding "combat ends" would ensure that step F of the complete rules reference is not skipped.

I start to understand your concern. The CRR is neither perfect nor a source reference (for me): it has a few glitches. And cards aren't written to match the CRR.

Nevertheless, Psyche! could say "After this combat..." even if it's exactly the same (except if you read the CRR step by step) since the combat ends at the same time round ends (since combat is about to end).

See, I would argue that in the case of Psyche!, the problem is not the complete rules reference, it's the text on Psyche!. Psyche! should state that combat ends the same way that Telepathic Tracking states that combat does not end. I would also argue that glitches in the complete rules reference should be fixed and cards definitely should be written to match the complete rules reference.

I'm not sure I see what is unclear (probably because I've been reading it for quite some time the way I want it to work).

However, here are some rulings that might be useful to take into consideration:
- Psyche! vs Obedience [LSJ 19991025] The reacting vampire can Wake + Obedience after a Psyche! in the first combat

This means Psyche! queues a combat, and that a little window opens between these two combats.


Psyche! doesn't end the combat. Especially: you can play Psyche!, and then Taste of Vitae, and then Disarm.


Psyche vs Telepathic Tracking: If Psyche is played first, TT can be played in the same round. TT will void any previously played Psyche. This implies that Psyche! doesn't end combat
If TT is played first, obviously Psyche cannot be played afterwards (as the combat isn't ending anymore).
vekn.net/forum/6-rules-questions/16788-new-psyche-and-telepathic-tracking?limit=10&start=30#18835


About the initial question involving Marthe:
vekn.net/forum/6-rules-questions/16788-new-psyche-and-telepathic-tracking#16820

- Can Marthe retrieve a Psyche! she just played?
Yes. Happy New Year, Marthe!