Marthe Dizier and retimed Psyche!

All that is well and good and good functionally. I am perfectly happy with the logical conclusion that one combat must end before another must start.

I'm also glad that Pysche! is now played as a combat card inside combat, instead of after it. Psyche! either needed to be changed that way or altered into an action modifier/reaction card and this version feels (mostly) cleaner.

But this does kinda point at Psyche! as actually resolving outside the timing window in which it is played, at least as currently written. At first blush, I'm hard pressed to find another card performing in that fashion while lacking explicit text or rules describing that deferral.

As an aside, I kinda thought the de facto ruling was that a round had to be completed before combat could be completed (much like a new combat couldn't start without the first ending, right?). So S:CE advances combat to the end-of-round step (not the end-of-combat step); allowing Psyche!, Tracking and Taste to be played in their proper window. Functionally isn't this the same as others have described, without resorting to blurring the timing between end-of-round and end-of-combat?

I suppose that what I described above might well be a distinction without a difference, it just felt easier to describe to new players when everything is kept in it's proper timing step.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

But this does kinda point at Psyche! as actually resolving outside the timing window in which it is played, at least as currently written. At first blush, I'm hard pressed to find another card performing in that fashion while lacking explicit text or rules describing that deferral.

But Psyche! does have explicit text indicating that its effect happens a little while later.

"At the end of a round" is still in the round (like "at the end of an action" is still in the action, for relevant action modifiers). It then tells you that "After this round", the thing happens.

That's similar to, for example:

- Day Operation . Played when the action is announced, with some effect now and a delayed effect: "The acting vampire goes to torpor after resolving the action."

- Shroudsight , which also is played in one step (action announced) and has an effect that kicks in much later ("After the action is resolved")

- Inner Essence which is played in one step, but whose effect might be used much later

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

So S:CE advances combat to the end-of-round step (not the end-of-combat step); allowing Psyche!, Tracking and Taste to be played in their proper window. Functionally isn't this the same as others have described, without resorting to blurring the timing between end-of-round and end-of-combat?

No-one's blurring the timing. If combat ends, the round ends too. So you pass through both, just as you would if the round (and combat) ended any other way e.g. a round of combat with no press to continue, or if someone resolves a "combat ends" strike. Those both happen all the time, with absolutely no blurring, smudging, fading, loss of clarity, dimming, indistinctness, vagueness, or fogginess.

In some games, you have a list of timing steps, with specific things like "end of turn" or "end of round" or similar in them. In those games, you will sometimes find that things that trigger on "end of turn" only trigger if you pass through that specific phase. If you find some way of prematurely ending your turn, you can avoid things triggering off that phase. (This happened in some iterations of the Magic rules, for example.)

V:TES isn't one of those games - end of round effects can be played however the round ends, as can end of combat effects. (Unless, of course, they're prohibited for some other reason.)

jamesatzephyr wrote:

But Psyche! does have explicit text indicating that its effect happens a little while later.

"At the end of a round" is still in the round (like "at the end of an action" is still in the action, for relevant action modifiers). It then tells you that "After this round", the thing happens.

Fair enough, I misspoke. There is an explicit deferral - it's just not entirely accurate. It states "at the end of the round" and what we've talked about in this thread is really "when (after) combat ends (after this round)." At least I think we've agreed that is a different window (per your first post in this thread where you agree end of round and end of combat are different).

jamesatzephyr wrote:

In some games, you have a list of timing steps, with specific things like "end of turn" or "end of round" or similar in them. In those games, you will sometimes find that things that trigger on "end of turn" only trigger if you pass through that specific phase. If you find some way of prematurely ending your turn, you can avoid things triggering off that phase. (This happened in some iterations of the Magic rules, for example.)

V:TES isn't one of those games - end of round effects can be played however the round ends, as can end of combat effects. (Unless, of course, they're prohibited for some other reason.)

James, I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of conflict here, but I think clarifying how things work is important in a game this convoluted. And I beg to differ on your point above. VTES is exactly like that, there are plenty of precedents for thing getting skipped in this game. Consider:

Ousting under Last Stand with a Temptation of Power that should be paid for in your discard phase. You don't pay beacause the discard pahse is skipped.)

Skipping a turn under First Tradition can avoid a whole lot of in-turn requirements/effects.

Pending damage from Drawing out the Beast damage is skipped if a minion plays an S:CE because the press step is bypassed.

I'm just trying to be completely clear that we're not operating in that domain here - and if needed to challenge any rulings that create opportunities to play End of Round effects and End of Combat effects in different order/combination (than in a normally progressing combat) just because an S:CE was played.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

I think his point was that the current text on Psyche! doesn't really jibe with the Complete Rules Reference. The text should state "after this round, combat ends, but begin a new combat with the opposing minion." Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?

That would probably be fine. But since we only ever have one combat going on at once - there's no mechanism in the game for having two going on at once - a new combat implicitly ends the first one.

I don't think we should assume that every player would know the esoteric mechanisms you outline in the quote above. The bottom line is the card text on Psyche! is confusing. It should be changed for clarity.