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This is a relatively small can of worms, since the amount of advanced vampires who this concerns is rather small ~10. However, I bet some player somewhere goes to play the way he/she thinks it works, and will be surprised in the end if rules lawyers are present.

It is however somewhat unintuitive since first we have counter placed on a vampire that overrules the card text (anarch counter says that this vampire is now an anarch instead of what is printed on the vampire), then we have card text overruling said counter (merged vampire is now independent instead of being an anarch). It would be clearer if for example counters would always overrule card text, so people could maintain this "hierarchy" in their heads what effect is 'stronger'. It would be more intuitive in my opinion. Currently the anarch counter is only a reminder, but it could be the defining factor.

I still prefer anarch and independent being separate sects btw.

Lönkka wrote:

What a lovely can of worms! :/

Why?

What a lovely can of worms! :/

PetriWessman wrote:

Ok, to be absolutely clear on this:

Let's look at Tariq. His base version is Independent, his Advanced version is Sabbat, and his merge text specifies Independent.

With him, if either version of him is made Anarch before merge, and then he is merged (either way), he reverts back to Independent (because merge text specifies Independent).

Is this correct?

Correct. He changes sect when merged.

PetriWessman wrote:

Then let's look at Enzo Giovanni. Both versions specify Independent, but his merge text does not specify sect.

With him, it's clear that if the base version is made Anarch and then he is merged, he reverts back to Independent (due to advanced version specifying that sect).

Correct.

PetriWessman wrote:

But what happens if the advanced version is made Anarch and then merged with the base version? Does he get to stay Anarch then (due to no sect in merge text), or does he still revert to Independent?

He stays Anarch, the sect of the base vampire is ignored, and the sect of the advanced vampire has already been taken into account (then superseded by the Anarch sect)

Ok, to be absolutely clear on this:

Let's look at Tariq. His base version is Independent, his Advanced version is Sabbat, and his merge text specifies Independent.

With him, if either version of him is made Anarch before merge, and then he is merged (either way), he reverts back to Independent (because merge text specifies Independent).

Is this correct?

Then let's look at Enzo Giovanni. Both versions specify Independent, but his merge text does not specify sect.

With him, it's clear that if the base version is made Anarch and then he is merged, he reverts back to Independent (due to advanced version specifying that sect). But what happens if the advanced version is made Anarch and then merged with the base version? Does he get to stay Anarch then (due to no sect in merge text), or does he still revert to Independent?

Bloodartist wrote:

If I make advanced version of an independent vampire anarch, and then merge it with basic version, is the "independent" status re-applied or does the vampire remain anarch?

If the merged version has a sect designation, then that will apply, cf. Tariq, the Silent.

Play Tariq, the Silent (Adv), go Anarch. Merge him, and he'll be Independent because the merge text has a sect designation.

PetriWessman wrote:

Advanced Enzo Giovanni, for example. But there may be others, haven't checked.

Ambrogino Giovanni, Beckett, Ivan Krenyenko, Jack Dawson, Jan Pieterzoon, Kemintiri (?), Lambach, Menele, Nergal, Petaniqua, Tariq the silent.

If I'm not mistaken.. If basic version of these vampires would acquire anarch status, they would lose it upon merging according to the new rule?

If I make advanced version of an independent vampire anarch, and then merge it with basic version, is the "independent" status re-applied or does the vampire remain anarch?

Ankha wrote:

The Anarch sect would be lost, and the vampire would become Independent instead.

What was the vampire you were thinking of?

Advanced Enzo Giovanni, for example. But there may be others, haven't checked.

So ok, this ruling changes what happens in this case for Enzo, at least. Previously the sect would stay Independent and Enzo would retain Anarch status. Now that goes away.

Did he mean the base wasn't printed as Anarch?

Adv/merge from rulebook:
The particulars of this merge are as follows. The counters and cards on the vampire remain. The advancement and the base card are treated as a single vampire card, even if sent to the uncontrolled region somehow, until the vampire is burned. Any effects in play that targeted the vampire now target the merged version.
(I bolded important part)
When merged, the text on the base card still applies, but the rest of the card is ignored (capacity, Disciplines, etc.). The advancement card applies in full. If the advancement card conflictsiconmiscmergedold with the base card (a different sect, for example), the advancement card has precedence. Some merged cards have an additional effect that only applies if the card is merged with its base card. Such an effect is identified in the card text by a "merged" icon.

The advanced vampire (merged or not) will contest other copies of the same vampire (advanced or not) in play, as usual.

Now, rulebook doesn't state that you get an anarch counter from the cardless action, but most other ways to be anarch give a card or counter.
So, unsure about the cardless action, but unless there's a missing "burn this if the vampire changes sects" I think you change sects. Not sure about non permanent stuff, twilight camp and cardless action, but relatively sure you change sects.(since the merge ot adv text applies.)basically you have the trait or its printed, adv or merge replaces it. If you have cards or counters, they burn.
Again, important what crypt card you're asking about.
Skimming stuff, if you had a Beckett, Tariq, etc and merging makes you independent, you are no longer anarch.

*edit* I just edited like 6 times replacing my auto correct with "cardless" instead of "careless ".......

PetriWessman wrote:

About "Anarch is now a sect": (and sorry if this has been discussed before, if so I've missed if)

Does this change how merging anarch vampires works?

Say that the advanced version of Vampire X is "Independent". If I have the base version of X and make it Anarch, and then later merge the superior version, does it lose the Anarch status (now sect)? Or is Independent treated the same as Anarch in this case also?

The Anarch sect would be lost, and the vampire would become Independent instead.

What was the vampire you were thinking of?

Advanced takes precedent over base when they conflict. Somerge dominique, germaine, etc, get an anarch with the texts of base and adv.

About "Anarch is now a sect": (and sorry if this has been discussed before, if so I've missed if)

Does this change how merging anarch vampires works?

Say that the advanced version of Vampire X is "Independent". If I have the base version of X and make it Anarch, and then later merge the superior version, does it lose the Anarch status (now sect)? Or is Independent treated the same as Anarch in this case also?

Ankha wrote:

No, [allies] can be locked during the minion phase, as before. Apparently, it's clearer with the rule change since people discover possibilities that have always been there.

Agreed that this is much more clear for people, which is why this is a good rules change. Thank you.

Lönkka wrote:

Bloodartist wrote:

narpassword wrote:

However: The employ Retainer sections says this:

Unlike
equipment, a retainer is loyal to the minion that *recruited* it and
cannot be transferred.

Because who bothers proofreading the rulebook, right? ;P

Which can be VERY tedious a job when you do it properly.
Been there, done that.

Am there, do that for my day job (though, with technical/medical/scientific manuscripts and documents, not game rulebooks)

But it is a chore that needs to be done with an ultrafine comb.

Sloppy rules will cause humongous problems.

I agree with this. I have tried to give the rulebook a cold read (basically a close read to catch gross errors such as the "recruit retainers" thing), but every time I start, I decide it's better to just rewrite the rulebook. I've been at about 1/16 of the way through rewriting it for a year now. (It's hard to find time). I may just decide to plow ahead with the cold read for now, as I guarantee I will find many other gross errors that could use fixing.

Thanks, both mistakes were fixed.