I really don't like ashur tablets

DeathInABottle wrote:

I don't know what you mean. What are the fundamental rules of VTES, and why do these decks illustrate a design error?

It's not a rule as in rulebook (I used before "rule of vtes deck construction but forget that here).

The main difficulty in VtES, and what make deck building interesting, is the card flow. For example, if you absolutely need a unique card in play from your library, you will choke on it. There is some card to help with that, like Magic of the smith, Infernal Pursuit, Dream of the Sphinx, or doing a smallish deck, but they are not enough, and can have problematic side effect (running out of card, for example).

The same problem arise when you try to toolbox, because you may choke on unused card pretty easily, or run out of a specific solution. Then again, the same solution apply to avoid that

But Ashur tablet allow for vastly more powerful card manipulation to counter that : you put some Ashur in a 60 card deck, and you alleviate thoses problem way more than any other card, and as a bonus, you also remove the main penalty of the aforementioned card, which is running out of card !

So, Ashur is just a sad error. A sad error that make decks that can use them significantly easier to tune than other deck.

That part of deckbuilding isn't exactly a rule, but I won't quibble over semantics. I disagree with the premise that cards that alter flow by enabling card manipulation are an error; I think they're a new feature. They add something to the game that wasn't there before, opening up new options in the process. I understand that you don't like those options because you think they're overpowered; until I see AT used throughout the TWDA, which, as you acknowledge, they're not, I disagree with the claim. They provide a powerful effect, sure, but they take a long time to set up and they're fragile. A couple of Sudden Reversals would cripple both of the decks that I posted. So would someone else running AT faster than me. So would Trochomancy.

Oh, also, I'd note that Methuselahs are vampires, so it's entirely reasonable that they might have access to -based effects.

DeathInABottle wrote:

I disagree with the premise that cards that alter flow by enabling card manipulation are an error; I think they're a new feature.

I can agree to disagree, in that by essence I think it's a bad idea and it spoil a fundamental thing in VtES while. It's not about Ashur being overpowered, but about Ashur broking what make VtES interesting.

Also, reasonable card manipulation is not troublesome for me. Ashur is troublesome because it's very efficient and reverse the disavantadge of the other manipulation available.

I suppose the fact that you aren't able to make what you want to do work without them can help with your position. I don't say that as an insult, but as a constatation that the two deck you shown could work without Ashur but would require significantly more difficult tuning and would be significantly less stable (and so, Ashur is a significant part in their inner working).

The real reason that I needed AT for those decks was card scarcity, actually. The Unnamed deck would work fine if it were 80 cards, but only if I had four Cogs. I obviously don't. And the other deck would probably scale up fairly well too. Other decks, though, definitely need AT. I don't have my Shalmath deck entered in to Secret Library, but it really does require the bare minimum 60 cards: Shalmath collects a bunch of bleed boosting permanents and a Cog, and then starts blasting my prey unblockably after Vaticinating their bounce away. It works - I've won games with it - but I'm not sure that it's tournament viable. It certainly wouldn't be tournament viable if I had to scale it up after ditching AT. So that's at least one instance where the card helped generate a brand new deck.

Anyway, yes: I can agree to disagree here. But one last point: why do you think that AT has "spoiled" something fundamental to VTES? I only run AT in two or three decks, and I probably have 30 built. The other 27 have no use for it: I've balanced them all in accordance with the rule that you described above. Adding AT would hurt those decks. In what sense, then, has the card spoiled anything? It seems to me like it's just a net addition to the number of different deck building strategies available.

MMPA was already a huge gift when there were not so many good masters available (Anson still rocked before, because Tor had good clan masters), but now, they simply just superior to everything else. Nana is one of the best, if not the best vamp in the game. Good disciplines, midcap, and 2 awesome abilities. built-in plus handsize is always good, but with the add. master phase, simply ridiculous and not even a setback was given to her.
Ashur is OP because of the few insane vamps who can abuse it (namely Anson, Cybele and Nana). I'm still in favor of banning ashur, because you definitely cannot ban MMPA (or vamps that make it available) and it'd be stupid, but you can take away one of their main card that gives them generic superiority. Like the Imbued, they are still very powerful, and before the banning Edge Explosion and Memories of Mortality they were OP. The same thing is the solution here, but in this case, only 1 addition to the banlist is enough as a start.