Tier 1 deck archetypes

Ohlmann wrote:

I see them less played, and coincidentally less successful. Then again, !Ventrue is not dead as an archetype, but Tremere grind seem a step above it, and both deck play more or less the same way.

Missing Fortitude seems like a weakness, though and results in a more wallish approach.

IIRC, they have won one tournament in one year. And I never seen them perform extremely well. I would rate this as average, especially since ally stealing or burning is pretty widespread, because of war ghoul and other ally deck.

Well, ally stealing works badly against the Imbued and they have trivial access to +2 Intercept and easy access to +3.

But yeah, I hear you. What do others think? Should Imbued be placed into the bubbling under category?

I have met them (and at least once with an above-average player behind the deck). They seem to be pretty good, but very fragile, and I have often seen a well-placed banishment or Pentex Subversion be enough to oust them. I also have seen Enkidu (especially) going to torpor because of card jam or player error/underestimation.

They are solid deck, I agree ; but they don't seem all that resilient.

Banishing Enkidu is a rare thing. At least the deck that's making the rounds here is very resistant to hand jams and to Pentex unless it hits it on the round after Enkidu comes.

I admit that my opinion may be biased in that the deck is being played by the IMO top player in Finland (top three at the very least).

kombainas wrote:

Reading through recent TWDA's it seems that there were quite many wall-type decks, none of them weenie. Are you sure wall category deserves only 1 entry?

An excellent point. How would you describe the deck archetype? Just 'Wall' seems a bit nebulous. Is the Tzimisce Wall the most potent? Anson gun wall is also powerful - are there others?

An excellent point. How would you describe the deck archetype? Just 'Wall' seems a bit nebulous.

Well, "wall" would have to be classified under combat-type ousting archetype (yeah, Smilling Jack and co. does pool damage as well, but a wall would not be able to defend them if only striking for 1). There can be non-violent wall types, but I am yet to play against or build one. If we agree, that wall belongs under combat archetype, wall differs from rush in it's way to enter the combat. Just as adding two Deep Songs into ANI bruise-bleeder does not make it a rush deck, same way adding few 2nd Trads, does not make a wall deck, it should be clear, that wall has to reliably intercept and untap, which takes quite some space in a deck.

Just my 2 cents : please be more specific in your deck description.

Because the name of a vampire don't fully describe what it is.

kombainas wrote:

An excellent point. How would you describe the deck archetype? Just 'Wall' seems a bit nebulous.

Well, "wall" would have to be classified under combat-type ousting archetype (yeah, Smilling Jack and co. does pool damage as well, but a wall would not be able to defend them if only striking for 1). There can be non-violent wall types, but I am yet to play against or build one. If we agree, that wall belongs under combat archetype, wall differs from rush in it's way to enter the combat. Just as adding two Deep Songs into ANI bruise-bleeder does not make it a rush deck, same way adding few 2nd Trads, does not make a wall deck, it should be clear, that wall has to reliably intercept and untap, which takes quite some space in a deck.

I think that Wall is fundamentally different from rush combat. For example, Weenie AUS wall usually has Sniper Rifles and maybe Target: Vitals but not much else combat. It relies on the fact that the minions are somewhat expendable and all can block effectively. A wall doesn't usually aim for "nuclear" destruction but rather puts in Smiling Jack (sometimes also Anarch Revolt and Constant Revolution) and waits for the table to die.

Combat decks often have something like 60 combat cards while Wall decks have for example 50 Reactions. This leads to very different decks wrt lethality.

Timo wrote:

Just my 2 cents : please be more specific in your deck description.

Because the name of a vampire don't fully describe what it is.

Not a bad idea. I don't want to be too specific, because VTES decks, by their very nature, allow for lots of variations while still retaining the basic idea, but yes, I'll try to describe them a bit more.

Ohlmann wrote:

To clarify : I don't pretend to be a reference about metagame ; I am giving my opinion of people who never won a tournament.

well, thank you, but you make small mistakes here.

Lemminkäinen wrote:

Also, !Ventrue seem to be winning and getting to the finals rather consistently still.

I see them less played, and coincidentally less successful. Then again, !Ventrue is not dead as an archetype, but Tremere grind seem a step above it, and both deck play more or less the same way.

they are all the rage during tournaments, and are one step ahead the tremere archetype. Fortitude cards give them access to better resilience, freak drive for multi action the turn you are out of intercept, and daring the down which is amazing for the lunge. They have a lot of small caps with dom, and the blood gain from Owain is incredible through the course of a game. They can defend the rack or smiling jack better than the most of the tremere decks I saw in tournaments.

Lemminkäinen wrote:

Have you met them? Played by good players and with tuned decks? Because really, the Enkidu deck is utterly amazing and I would rate it as being in the top three decks currently. Shalmath is not quite as crazy but the combat package is just so ridiculous.

I have met them (and at least once with an above-average player behind the deck). They seem to be pretty good, but very fragile, and I have often seen a well-placed banishment or Pentex Subversion be enough to oust them. I also have seen Enkidu (especially) going to torpor because of card jam or player error/underestimation.

They are solid deck, I agree ; but they don't seem all that resilient.

Banishment on Enkidu, you must be kidding me
they often have T.J. in the crypt to prevent parity shifts and I only saw once the old trick "i put a master discipline dominate on alexandra to mind rape everything ". Enkidu decks pack pentexes to avoid being pentexed. I have almost never seen enkidu in torpor, except when the player made an obvious mistake. Taste of vitae for 6 goes a loong way for a vampire to not even think about torpor

Reyda wrote:

I have almost never seen enkidu in torpor, except when the player made an obvious mistake. Taste of vitae for 6 goes a loong way for a vampire to not even think about torpor

That's where Cardinal Sin: Insubordination is a great card.

My Stavros torporized Enkidu after Earth Meld + Psyche!