New Card - Unstoppable Force

Ohlmann wrote:

First, if your bruise and bleed is either unable to torpor people or unable to know before hand if he is likely to torpor his ennemy, the deck is pretty much wallpaper. Even in the case of a surprise, you can play the card at inf to cycle.

By "the deck is wallpaper", do you mean that the bruise and bleed predator is in a very difficult spot because he'll have a hard time dealing with his damage preventing prey? Sure. But so what? There's always a deck type to counter your deck type. If the predator played stealth bleed and his prey played dedicated intercept, the predator would be similarly screwed. That's how the game works. This card isn't intended to deal with all situations; it's intended to give decks - probably those that lack stealth - a way of dealing with foolish blockers, or chump blockers.

As to the point about being able to cycle the card - I just don't see that as a problem. Cards designed to help combat decks *should* be easily cyclable, because otherwise the smart combat deck builder won't include them.

Ohlmann wrote:

Second, it does not open new strategy at all. If yoiu are blocked abnd torporize vampires with a bruiose and bleed, you are pretty much in optimum position already, since that's more or the less the plan.

You're right: it doesn't open up a new strategy - it just helps an old one. Like most cards do.

Ohlmann wrote:

Bruise and bleed mostly have problem when either the prey ignore your vampire and bloat or redirect everything, or when you attack a deck than counter your combat in hardcore way. How in hell this card help thoses situation ?

It doesn't. Does it have to?

Ohlmann wrote:

I believe this card is really underpriced, and will not halp the decks it's intended to help ; it may, however, make unexpected deck overpowered.

It's probably underpriced, and it might help unexpected deck types. (For instance, I could see this being a boon to weenie Horseshoe decks. I think that would be cool.) Both of those questions could be answered in playtesting.

DeathInABottle wrote:

You're right: it doesn't open up a new strategy - it just helps an old one. Like most cards do.

It does not help it that much either. The bruise'n'bleed that actually happen to torporize the blocker does not need help. The one who is in trouble is the one who have every bleed redirected or "lose" every combat (in the sense "does do significant damage".

For the rest, I will not try to punch through the wall of your stubborness. It is extremely underpriced compared to semblables card, it's extremely easy to see (ust look at momentary delay or torrent ...). If the others card are that much more costly and still see some play for at least some of them, maybe that a way lower cost one is not exactly a good idea ?

Ohlmann wrote:

DeathInABottle wrote:

You're right: it doesn't open up a new strategy - it just helps an old one. Like most cards do.

It does not help it that much either. The bruise'n'bleed that actually happen to torporize the blocker does not need help. The one who is in trouble is the one who have every bleed redirected or "lose" every combat (in the sense "does do significant damage".

For the rest, I will not try to punch through the wall of your stubborness. It is extremely underpriced compared to semblables card, it's extremely easy to see (ust look at momentary delay or torrent ...). If the others card are that much more costly and still see some play for at least some of them, maybe that a way lower cost one is not exactly a good idea ?

Blood cost is not the only cost: torporizing a vampire requires very particular conditions. Overcoming S:CE requires Grapple, for instance, or Psyche; overcoming prevent requires unpreventable damage; and simply overcoming lots of blood requires multiple strikes, presses, and so on. In addition, the predator must be able to deal with hitback. I don't know about your meta, but in mine, where combat is heavy, this is all *very* difficult to deal with - in other words, very *costly*. *Much* less so than the simple one blood cost of Form of Mist, and probably on par with the two blood cost of Torrent (depending on the meta).

Shard wrote:

Speedbump:modifier:

If the blocking minion not ready after resulting combat, the action continues as if unblocked

playable when blocking minion leaves the ready region

continue the action

Extremely problematic with the current rulings which allow True Brujah to:

1. Domain of Evernight + Outside the Hourglass, and now continue the action

2. Outside the Hourglass (at "close" range) + Outside the Hourglass (dodge with a maneuver) + Disarm (since you inflicted more damage at "close" range), followed optionally be a Decapitate, and now the action continues as well if you were blocked?

echiang wrote:

Shard wrote:

Speedbump:modifier:

If the blocking minion not ready after resulting combat, the action continues as if unblocked

playable when blocking minion leaves the ready region

continue the action

Extremely problematic with the current rulings which allow True Brujah to:

1. Domain of Evernight + Outside the Hourglass, and now continue the action

2. Outside the Hourglass (at "close" range) + Outside the Hourglass (dodge with a maneuver) + Disarm (since you inflicted more damage at "close" range), followed optionally be a Decapitate, and now the action continues as well if you were blocked?

It doesn't entirely address the problem, but what about adding on another discipline?

Speedbump
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Potence and Fortitude
Only usable after a combat between the acting minion you control and a blocking minion; not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor.
If the blocking minion is not ready, the action continues as if unblocked at -2 stealth.
As above, but without the -2 stealth.

I'd be more interested in seeing a different, weaker effect entirely at , but I'm not sure what would work.

Much better than the original version for me since this one have in my opinion a significant cost, even if still undercosted.

A possible inferior / superior level :

[pot][for] If you have inflicted more damage than your opponent, untap this vampire. Only one Speedbump at (inferior/superior) can be played by a vampire each turn.

I have an hard time to say if it's more or less powerful than the "continue action" way. But the concept of an "inverted" freak drive seem useful.