file List of cards to ban

11 Feb 2011 22:09 - 15 Feb 2011 15:17 #1305 by elotar
List of cards to ban was created by elotar
As was pointed out, by now it's impossible to print proxies, so let's choose more bloody and fun way!

Main reasons to put card in this list:
1. card is hard to find
2. card is no braner addition to any deck, which can allow it
3. card's effect is too powerful
4. card slows the game
Apd: 5. Card is adding nothing 2 the game.

I'll update list during the discussion

Villein 1,2,3.
Giant blood 2,3.

Heart of Nischteus 1,2,3,4.
Parity shift 1,2,3.
Govern the unalignet 2,3.
Pentex subversion 1,2,3.
Both DI 1,2,4.

Dreams of the Sphinx 1,2,3.
Jake Washington 1,2.

Ashur tablets 1,4.
Wash 2,4.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:
Last edit: 15 Feb 2011 15:17 by elotar.
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11 Feb 2011 23:09 #1306 by Adonai
Replied by Adonai on topic Re: List of cards to ban
None of these.

Eight of the cards on your list are masters.
All can be countered easily by your predator or prey playing with Wash. All can be easily countered by anyone at the table playing Sudden Reversal.

Heart of Nizchetus is easily stolen / destroyed.

Parity Shift can be delayed and voted down.

Basic defenses cover all of these cards adequately.

My guideline for items worthy of banning:

1) Breaks the game by having an effect significantly out of proportion to its cost and to other cards which have similar effects and cannot be blocked or interacted with significantly by the target. Return to Innocence and Protect Thine Own (cross-table) go here.

2) Breaks the game by removing/replacing the predator-prey offense/defense relationship. Dramatic Upheaval and Kindred Restructure go here.

Pentex Subversion and Parity Shift are the only two in your list that come close to belonging in either group.

Rarity/availability is never sufficient cause to ban cards.

If you feel it is, then you should consider the Draft formats.
They can be enjoyed for as long as product is available for sale.
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12 Feb 2011 01:01 #1307 by Baronofhilliard
Villein I think should be played as per the card. The rest of the cards seem fine unless your on the wrong end of a good play.

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12 Feb 2011 01:25 #1308 by Boris The Blade

1. card is hard to find

Ban Feline Saboteur.

2. card is no braner addition to any deck, which can allow it

Ban Blood Doll.

3. card's effect is too powerfool

Ban Dominate.

4. card slows the game

Ban Auspex.
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12 Feb 2011 05:38 #1310 by Juggernaut1981
Lasombra,
Based on your criteria, I would consider adding 1 additional criteria.

1) The card provides excessive effect per cost (including opportunity costs) and should be removed from tournament play entirely.
2) The card subverts the Predator-Prey relationship (similarly to Dramatic Upheaval)
3) The card requires significant errata to bring it within an acceptable 'range' of the effect per cost curve (basically the card has too much power but isn't yet overpowered enough to be banned forever).

Pentex Subversion 3 (all suggestions on errata are lengthy and suggests that if the card needs errata it almost needs a complete rewrite and therefore I'd suggest it should be banned until it can be reprinted)
Voter Captivation 1 and/or 3
Villein 3 (or at least a re-ruling to instate the plain-english reading that would require 2+ blood to be on the target vampire)
Carlton van Wyck 3 (or at least re-ruling so that Carlton cannot burn vampires that diablerised BEFORE Carlton was recruited)

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

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13 Feb 2011 11:31 - 13 Feb 2011 12:14 #1338 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Re: List of cards to ban
2 Adonay: in vtes all cards can be dealt with. Your argument means nothing. Also, 4 example, PS effect is generally equal to protect thy own.

2 Baron: the whole idea is about to swich accent from good cards to good play. There is no "good play" in villeyn-GB or PS-govern-conditioning.

2 Boris: idea is to ban cards, which "violates" several of such "rules".

2 Juggernaut: "top level" criteria is to make the game more fun.(iclee.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/classic-bannings-errata-oh-my/). I was thinking about VC and CvW but gaining blood for vote difference is fun (N of votes referendum was won matters) as well as burning the diablerist (retribution!!!). For example Giant Blood aka "put in every deck and play on the first oportunity" is not fun.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:
Last edit: 13 Feb 2011 12:14 by elotar.

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