file List of cards to ban

14 Feb 2011 09:57 #1416 by BeAst
Replied by BeAst on topic Re: List of cards to ban

As was pointed out, by now it's impossible to print proxies, so let's choose more bloody and fun way!

Main reasons to put card in this list:
1. card is hard to find
2. card is no braner addition to any deck, which can allow it
3. card's effect is too powerful
4. card slows the game

I'll update list during the discussion

Villein 1,2,3.
Giant blood 2,3.
Jake Washington 1,2.
Heart of Nischteus 1,2,3,4.
Parity shift 1,2,3.
Govern the unalignet 2,3.
Pentex subversion 1,2,3.
Both DI 1,2,4.
Dreams of the Sphinx 1,2,3.
Ashur tablets 1,4.
Wash 2,4.


You're suggesting banning cards for the following reasons -

1. "card is hard to find" According to whom? I suppose I better bin all my rares, they're harder to find than commons.

2. "card is no braner addition to any deck, which can allow it" This one may be my favourite - ban cards that can be used in decks that use them? Isn't that any card? Blood doll for sure, that can fit in practically any deck (I'm not talking to you, Travis Traveler72 Miller)! Sudden reversal - gone. Info highway - gone. On the Qui Vive - gone. I can't see how you can apply this universally.

3. "card's effect is too powerful" Again, as defined by whom? We may as well get rid of ALL events, they affect the whole table! They can only be played once! Smiling Jack - gone. Constant Revolution - gone. Shatter the gates - gone. Power of all - gone.

4. "card slows the game" Here's another good one. Lets get rid of all walls, grinders, slow-setup decks, etc. and just all play speed stealth bleed! Who has the fastest malks? Millicent Smith - gone. Society of Leopold - gone. All intercept locations - gone.

On to the specific list:

Villein 1,2,3. - I have plenty. Doesn't fit in my weenie decks, or my imbued. Card effect is the same as minion tap (or similar).

Giant blood 2,3. - Ban life in the city in weenie decks. Ban all once per game cards.

Jake Washington 1,2. - REALLY? What is this? I don't even.


Heart of Nischteus 1,2,3,4. - Ban Anatole, Prophet of gehenna. Ban Blackhorse Tanner. Ban Sibyl's tongue. Ban Inconnu Tutelage.

Parity shift 1,2,3. - Ban Lily Prelude. Ban Reckless Agitation.

Govern the unalignet 2,3. - Ban KS/Enchant/Scouting/Social/Public/Reunion Kamut/Freak Drive/every card.


Pentex subversion 1,2,3. - Ban Smiling Jack (my imbued can't remove it AT ALL!) Ban Blind spot (no reaction cards? wtf?). Ban graverobbing (I lose a minion FOREVER?) Ban Form of Corruption (it doesn't go away!)

Both DI 1,2,4. - Don't forget Mundane, power of all, Louhi, approximation of loyalty, wash, sudden etc.

Dreams of the Sphinx 1,2,3. - Just...what?

Ashur tablets 1,4. - So it's hard to find, and it slows the game, but it's not powerful or usable in any deck? If you're going to apply these rules, please make them consistent. So, lets get rid of PB Montreal and Baranquilla, any investments, sudario refraction, epikasta rigatos etc.

Wash 2,4 - Oh, you DID put wash on the list. Apparently it can be used in any deck, and slows the game. Best add any intercept location too then.

In summary: if you DO want to discuss banning cards, please back them up with...something. If you do open the discussion (and although I don't think the banstick needs waving, I'm willing to listen) then I think the criteria need to be rock solid, and the ones you've listed just aren't. You either need to pick a specific card and address it directly, or make the criteria so watertight there's no side effects. The ones above are so wide that ANY card falls foul of them.

ta
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14 Feb 2011 11:13 #1419 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Re: List of cards to ban

There is no vote going on. It's a discussion. Feel free to discuss the topic, but 1 vote doesn't really mean something. :huh:


+1 :)

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

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14 Feb 2011 11:21 - 14 Feb 2011 11:21 #1420 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Re: List of cards to ban
2 bakija.

So you suggesting bannings of PS and PS :) on the basis that they are "above power curve". I agree with you on the cards, but I didn't agree ob the basis.

It was well said by ICL:

"Banning a card may, for all intents and purposes, "unban" a lot more cards that weren't worth playing because of the banned card. That's probably a good thing."

The card doesn't need to be powerhouse to meet such criteria.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:
Last edit: 14 Feb 2011 11:21 by elotar.

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14 Feb 2011 12:10 - 14 Feb 2011 13:50 #1422 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Re: List of cards to ban

According to whom? I suppose I better bin all my rares, they're harder to find than commons.

Nope, uncommon Villein & common Ashur T are now much harder 2 find than most rares.

2. Isn't that any card? Blood doll for sure, that can fit in practically any deck (I'm not talking to you, Travis Traveler72 Miller)! Sudden reversal - gone. Info highway - gone. On the Qui Vive - gone. I can't see how you can apply this universally.

You r not adding blood doll 2 any deck, you chose between great number of other pool/blood management possibilities. With OtQV you got other "untap" options, quantity options and so on. With Giant Blood (or villeins, or PS) you r not thinking, you just put it in nearly any deck.

3. Again, as defined by whom?

At the moment by players, I think.

Millicent Smith - gone. Society of Leopold - gone. All intercept locations - gone.

MS burns vampires, SoL burns blood, intersep locations burn pool. You r wrong thinking, that this cards slows the game.

Villein 1,2,3. - I have plenty. Doesn't fit in my weenie decks, or my imbued. Card effect is the same as minion tap (or similar).

I have plenty to. Card effect is much more powerful then MT.

Giant blood 2,3. - Ban life in the city in weenie decks. Ban all once per game cards.

Just don't got connection.

Jake Washington 1,2. - REALLY? What is this? I don't even.

I'm not sure about it too. :) But we have to start big if we wan't to acomplish anything.

Heart of Nischteus 1,2,3,4. - Ban Anatole, Prophet of gehenna. Ban Blackhorse Tanner. Ban Sibyl's tongue. Ban Inconnu Tutelage.

Heart is worst of all in time consuming terms, as well as much more accesible than other cards (can be put in any deck).

Parity shift 1,2,3. - Ban Lily Prelude. Ban Reckless Agitation.

10 poll >>>> 4 or 6 pool.

Ban KS/Enchant/Scouting/Social/Public/Reunion Kamut/Freak Drive/every card.

I think, you just a little lost control of emotions starting from here :)

Unfortunately there are no rock solid criterions for bannings. There are still players, who thinks PtO must not be banned.


:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:
Last edit: 14 Feb 2011 13:50 by elotar.

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14 Feb 2011 13:58 #1424 by BeAst
Replied by BeAst on topic Re: List of cards to ban
I just don't understand what you're thinking. I'm not sure if what you posted was what you meant, but I'm working under the assumption it was. You're talking about BANNING cards. Those cards are to be removed forever from tournament play.

Ashurs and Villein are harder to find than most rares? I've enough of both. I'm not sure cards being *harder to find* is a good reason to ban them. What's accomplished by banning cards that people have worked hard to acquire (other than pissing those players off, of course)? Everything from HttB will be harder to acquire - ban all of that? ban the sets with small print runs? ban all jyhad backs?

I'm quoting you here "card is no braner addition to any deck, which can allow it". Maybe its a language thing, but you've effctively said we should ban cards that are obvious additions to any deck that permits them. That definition includes Blood Dolls (can fit in almost any deck, is an "obvious" choice). On the qui vive even more so, because allies can use it. Under the definition you've given, any clan specific hunting grounds should go. They're a no brainer in any deck using that clan, right? Oh, convictions too. With a little bit of imagination, you're calling for a ban on ALL non discipline or clan specific cards. I think what you were trying to say is remove all cards which have alternates that are "obviously" inferior. Even if that was what you were saying, I still say it's nonsense. Every cards you've listed subsequently fits this criteria, except apparently Ashur tablets, which either isn't a no brainer, or can't go in every deck. I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion.
All I can interpret this rule as is "I want less variety of cards available" which, forgive me for saying so, is about as counterproductive as you could hope to get.

"At the moment by players, I think." I'm a player. I don't want or see any need for any of your list to be banned. So...?

I'll quote you again - "card slows the game". This definition covers any card that retards ousting in the fastest way/time possible. All reaction cards are covered by this definition. If methuselahs didn't play reactions, the game would be a lot faster. All low cap minions should be banned under this, more minions means more actions which means a slower game. All political cards should go, referenda and currying votes adds to the play time. ANY card that allows pool to be recouped should go. Some *decks* work to slow a table down. Should those archetypes be banned? What's next? Banning players that query rules, because that slows games? The examples I ctied are all cards that "slow a game". Under your definition YOU are arguing these cards should be banned.

Villein - you have said this should be banned because (again quoting) "card is hard to find" (you said yourself it isn't, you have enough) "card is no braner addition to any deck, which can allow it" (I've discussed that above, it makes no sense) and "card's effect is too powerful" (it has the same effect as minion tap, but with a downside - it's total effect is WORSE than minion tap. I suspect your objection is around the fact it's a trifle.) None of these are sufficient reason to ban it.

Giant's blood - It refills a vamp. Life in the city refils a 1 cap, and is a trifle. For the 1 cap it's BETTER, they get refilled totally, but life in the city is a trifle, and not limited to once a game. From that perspective its much more of a "no braner" and "too powerful". Clearly designer intent is that its supposed to be a massive boost to a single minion, which is why it's a once per game. Why not ban all similarly powerful cards?

Jake Washington - is apparently hard to find and can fit in any deck. Jake is just so inoffensive I have no idea what you're reaching for. Is it the blood gain you have a problem with, or the fact he's a master card that becomes an ally? Why on earth would either of those make him a no brainer, unless you get repeatedly smacked down by BOTH warghoul players in the world.

Heart of Nizchetus - This one earns all 4! "card is hard to find" + "card is no braner addition to any deck, which can allow it" + "card's effect is too powerful" + "card slows the game". Thank goodness that #1 counters all the others! Even if it was a super powerful card that didn't have a built in clause to stop it working, and wasn't destroyable and stealable, even if it was a staple in every deck ever, even if it took an hour of game time total, then HURRAH, because it's so hard to find!

Parity Shift - 10 poll >>>> 4 pool. Aha but 10 pool is less than 4 pool squared!
Ok, all sarcasm aside, what does this even mean? You've listed it as ""card is hard to find", "card is no braner addition to any deck, which can allow it" and "card's effect is too powerful". Again, #1 works counter to the others. Card requires you to be on lower pool than the intended target, card is self limiting as number of methuselahs decreases. Lily prelude has fewer restrictions, can do similar damage, doesn't lose effectiveness in later game, and still allows you to gain 1 with each successful vote. Reckless agitation does similar damage, doesn't have a pool requirement, loses effectiveness in a similar way. Why not target either of those?
I'll assume your chief objection is that it's an offensive card that empowers the user. Just like Kindred Spirits. Or Social Charm. Or Public Trust. etc. Those have a darn sight fewer limitations and restrictions.

Even if there are some people that want PTO unbanned, I don't see how that makes your argument stronger.

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14 Feb 2011 14:29 - 14 Feb 2011 14:30 #1426 by Amenophobis
BeAst, please use the quote-function. That way it's easier to follow the discussion. :whistle:
Last edit: 14 Feb 2011 14:30 by Amenophobis.

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