List of cards to ban

bakija wrote:

If everyone plays it, it gets contested. Which is generally worse than just not playing it in the first place.

O! Good point! Heart will go off the list. Sphinx too?

bakija wrote:

to kill Govern, Conditioning, and Deflection. Then dominate starts to look reasonable.

Deflection is a bleed bouce. I will nefer suggest to ban a bleed bounce B)
Conditioning is good, but we have Aire of Elation, but I've never heared any complains about evil toreador bleeders.

Only the "Parity Shift - 10 poll >>>> 4 pool" is a quote from his last post, everything else is from a prior post. I elected not to use quotes to maintain congruity, and to address his points separately. If you like I can edit to put those 4 words in a quote.

BeAst wrote:

What's accomplished by banning cards that people have worked hard to acquire

The reason 4 it is to stop such strange behavior, as "hard work to acquire" pieces of paper.

obvious additions to any deck ... Blood Dolls ... On the qui vive ... hunting grounds

em...no?

"I want less variety of cards available"

It was well said by ICL:
"Banning a card may, for all intents and purposes, "unban" a lot more cards that weren't worth playing because of the banned card. That's probably a good thing."

"At the moment by players, I think." I'm a player. I don't want or see any need for any of your list to be banned. So...?

I'm from Soviet Russia! We'll ban things regardles of what you want!

If methuselahs didn't play reactions, the game would be a lot faster. All low cap minions should be banned under this, more minions means more actions which means a slower game.All political cards should go, referenda and currying votes adds to the play time.

em...no? Play a draft.

Villein - it's total effect is WORSE than minion tap.

I'm putting your phraces out of contex but, em....no?

Life in the city ... "too powerful"

em...you got the idea?

Jake Washington

Are you reding my replies?

Heart of Nizchetus

Gone olready.

Parity Shift...Just like ... Social Charm or Public Trust.

Even if there are some people that want PTO unbanned, I don't see how that makes your argument stronger.

I think this people like cards more than game, so it not right to listen to them.

NOW WITH ADDED QUOTES!!112212121"""

elotar wrote:

The reason 4 it is to stop such strange behavior, as "hard work to acquire" pieces of paper.

Stop playing vtes. The first word in the ackronym CCG is "collectible". Take up patience, all 52 cards plus jokers come in one pack.

elotar wrote:

em...no?

That is not a counter argument.

elotar wrote:

It was well said by ICL:
"Banning a card may, for all intents and purposes, "unban" a lot more cards that weren't worth playing because of the banned card. That's probably a good thing."

Or, equally, it may just line a new load of cards up for the ban list. That's a bad thing.

elotar wrote:

I'm from Soviet Russia! We'll ban things regardles of what you want!

Sure, your playgroup can ban whatever it likes, just don't expect tournament rules to follow suit.

elotar wrote:

em...no? Play a draft.

Erm yes! Teapot is the zebra hat! Who wins the non-sequiter game?

elotar wrote:

I'm putting your phraces out of contex but, em....no?

Well, good. I'd hate to think you'd come up with cogent arguments instead.

elotar wrote:

em...you got the idea?

Really? You think life in the city is too powerful? You must HATE procurers then.

elotar wrote:

Are you reding my replies?

I think a better question is: are you reading them before posting them?

elotar wrote:

Gone olready.

Yes, because it was unique. This also strikes Dreams, Jake, and Giant's blood with the same reasoning. Apply criteria universally, or don't create a list.

elotar wrote:

err...

elotar wrote:

I think this people like cards more than game, so it not right to listen to them.

No, its never right not to listen to them. If they have a reasonable argument, and it improves the game then you gain. If you explain your position clearly, and help them understand and come to terms with it, then they gain.

elotar wrote:

BeAst is right about everything. I am making him my god now.

A small shrine will suffice.

BeAst wrote:

NOW WITH ADDED QUOTES!!112212121"""

Eeee-ha!!!

Stop playing vtes. The first word in the ackronym CCG is "collectible".

CCG is just a marketing sceme, not really much to do with the actual game.

That is not a counter argument.

em...no?

Or, equally, it may just line a new load of cards up for the ban list.

So we got load of cards to the ban list?

Sure, your playgroup can ban whatever it likes, just don't expect tournament rules to follow suit.

No way, comrades must make whole world happy, regardless of the costs!

Erm yes! Teapot is the zebra hat! Who wins the non-sequiter game?

I think i stop here

elotar wrote:

2 bakija.

I don't know what this means. Am I an android from a bleak dystopian future where love is illegal?

So you suggesting bannings of PS and PS on the basis that they are "above power curve". I agree with you on the cards, but I didn't agree ob the basis.

Well, kind of. Parity Shift is bad, as it is *way* above the power curve (if it was a max of 3, it's *still* be the best vote in the game), and makes playing non Camarilla vote strategies mostly pointless. As pretty much all situations where you are building, say, a sabbat vote deck, you'll say "Huh. I could do this exact same thing with a Camarilla clan, and have Parity Shift too..." I don't actually expect that Parity Shift will get removed ever (as that ship came and went when they printed KoT), but I think it would make the game more varied and interesting if it was gone. Pentex isn't too powerful. It is a completely reasonably costed card with a reasonable effect. It just makes it so there is way too much disincentive to play a superstar deck or a "tool up one guy" deck. Which is bad for the game, fun wise.

The card doesn't need to be powerhouse to meet such criteria.

If you want to minimize collateral damage, yeah, it needs to be a powerhouse. I mean, sure, you could come up with a list of 75 cards to ban (of which half would be Dominate) which would probably make the game more interesting, but no one is going to stand for that. I'm a big fan of laser guided banning of cards to fix the environment. Meaning as few as possible. I can think of 3 that I'd actually like to see go away:

-Parity Shift
-Pentex Subversion
-Direct Intervention

And that is all.