file Which Master do you most hate to see played in a tournament?

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Poll: Hated Master card (was ended 0000-00-00 00:00:00)

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10 May 2012 16:49 #29933 by Ohlmann

Also Ashurs had made some combat decks suddenly very viable which is kind of cool (mainly with MMPA:s). Reasons for this should be thought carefully if somebody wants to make combat better and what kind of new cards would offer similar benefits to combat decks without MMPA:s.


Well, being able to add back the card actually useful in your situation is kind of extra cool for combat tactics who often lack polyvalency.

The Waste Management Operation of the !brujah is actually already an interesting card for !brujah. It's just very slow and kind of difficult to play since you must plan what you will need at least 5-6 turn in advance. The other existing replacement that I know how is Sudario Refractio.

An ugly way to fix the ashur problem may be a trifle ashur that :
* can only be played once per turn
* is trifle
* does not give pool
* put all card in the deck
and both ashur tablet and thoses imitations would be removed by set of three. The original would be still better if you have the master action to spare, significantly weakened by the fact that everybody could easily play 3+ of thoses cards, everybody would be able to play this if needed, and Villein would be indirectly affected since more trifle card would be played.

They may very well be more elegants solutions, of course.

As a side note, in my opinion !brujah are the one to check if new card reinforce combat. Iron Glare, Scalpel Tongue, Waste operation Management, and their other powerful master, Unexpected Coalition, ... Only (relativeley) bad vampires and the ineffectuality of combat keep them in check.

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10 May 2012 17:54 #29939 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple

The main problem is not the Tablets, it´s the MMPA:s and the solid refusal of anyone responsible to admit and adress that problem. MMPA:S IS TOO GOOD. Again: TOO GOOD.


You and I disagree in a chicken and the egg sort of way. You say chicken. I say egg. Neither of our positions changes the fact that both chicken and egg exist, an observation on which we both agree.

:P

Here's where I think our opinions are entirely consistent.....when you have a MPA effect that is already borders on overpowered, M-MPA leverages it to the point of absurdity.

Here's where the difference of opinion lies, forgive me if the statements seem accusatory at all - they are not meant that way.

You would address the M-MPA as the root cause, leaving arguably broken mechanics to be potentially exploited, though at a slower pace. Those effects do feel less problematic in the more limited context.

I would address the power issue of the individual cards. Having tried to build Hag's Wrinkles decks, I find that an unlimited number of modest-impact actions yields modest results. My goal would be to make M-MPA like Hag's Wrinkles. In the process, I would almost certainly nerf aspects of some single MPA decks.

Both balance the game, at least more than it is currently balanced. I can even see the logic in reverting to a more 1:1 Master:turn relationship, because of the difficulty/sacrifices in countering MPA effects.

I just see addressing the underlying (IMO) broken mechanics as a more fundamentally complete solution - one that can be applied with minimally disruptive approach (banning).

That isn't to say that something like "You may have no more than 2 MPA in a turn" isn't a reasonable and comprehensive addition to the rules set. We've certainly institued changes like that before (e.g., NRA rules).

Regards, and looking forward to your opinion

- Darby

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10 May 2012 18:35 #29946 by KevinM

i'm just tired of girls decks winning tournaments

Then play bounce.

and i think ashur tablets, non lilliths blessing, is largely responsible for their current effectiveness.

Then play Sudden Reversal.

When you start to play cards that directly metagame against popular deck types, those deck types will get played less.

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10 May 2012 18:37 #29947 by Ashur
I don´t agree. One question first: Would you play Tablets without MMPA:s? I would not. Ergo - MMPA:s is the problem.

Also, I want to stress that I don´t want to errata or bann anything, or change the rules - unless it´s absolutely necessary (and I don´t think it is).

A simple solution would be some playable, really solid hoser-cards, ie effects that remove/limit/messes with MPA:s. Hoser CAN be nice, although I often feel they are badly designed (Trochomancy has weird timing, Scourge of the Enochians hits to broad, Carlton made certain decks totally unplayable etc). The same could be done versus recursion, if that is the problem.

"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

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10 May 2012 18:39 #29948 by Ohlmann

When you start to play cards that directly metagame against popular deck types, those deck types will get played less.


So why was PTO banned while Confusion of the eye was a perfectly legit counter ?

More seriously, while Sudden reversal may be underplayed, it's partly because it interact awfully with Villein while not alway being that powerful. Especially with Anthelios and MPA.

And redirect for Girl find... While it may help, it's not like bleed redirection were not common, nor enough.

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10 May 2012 18:42 - 10 May 2012 18:44 #29949 by Jeff Kuta

I don´t agree. One question first: Would you play Tablets without MMPA:s? I would not. Ergo - MMPA:s is the problem.


Ergo, *you believe* MMPAs are the problem.

I have put 6-9x Ashur Tablets in every single JOL deck I have played since they were released. If I owned more than 4, I would have 6x in every deck I play in a tournament, irrespective of MMPA capability.

A simple solution would be some playable, really solid hoser-cards, ie effects that remove/limit/messes with MPA:s. Hoser CAN be nice, although I often feel they are badly designed...


The law of unintended consequences heavily applies.

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Last edit: 10 May 2012 18:44 by Jeff Kuta.

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