file Which Master do you most hate to see played in a tournament?

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Poll: Hated Master card (was ended 0000-00-00 00:00:00)

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11 May 2012 19:44 - 11 May 2012 19:46 #30052 by Dorrinal
Kevin, you're right about stalling, but I think nc-italy still has a point. Even correct handling of Ashur Tablets can take a long time - for example it's not always obvious which card to take into hand, so the player may spend a few seconds thinking about the game state. It may seem like a minor point compared to Darby's argument based on recursion (pretty damning, IMO), but in a game where timeouts are so prevalent perhaps we should consider the time cost in playing any card.

:trem:
Last edit: 11 May 2012 19:46 by Dorrinal. Reason: Made that last sentence make sense!

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11 May 2012 21:01 #30054 by david.tatu
When I play Ashur Tablets, which is in about all my decks (most with only one MPA), I keep my "Top 13" cards on the top of my ash heap once I have an ashur on the table. If I feel like I am giving away info, then I put them all together but inside the heap some place. So when I drop my 3rd one, I pull the cards right out, lay them on the table for all to see, pick the one for my hand and go. It takes more time to shuffle than any other part of the move.

David Tatu
V:EKN Scribe
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11 May 2012 21:26 - 11 May 2012 21:31 #30055 by Juggernaut1981

I don't know why you would consider such s silver bullet solution.
**SNIPPED STUFF**
It prevents carrying another crap hoser like the Uncoiling. And has little potential for unforeseen new problems. Harbingers Millstone wasn't exactly owning the tournament scene.

If library recursion isn't the problem, isolate the real issues (honestly, I think you did - it's a confluence, to which I would add power levels for pool recursion trifles).

Regards,
- D

As I said, convergeance of effects.

Askinya + Anthelios = Dump a card that will be useful somewhere safe to be picked up later FOR A BONUS.

Anson + Anthelios = Dump a card that might be useful later to pick up one that is useful NOW.

Both of the above versions + Ashur Tablets = I don't have to really care WHAT Masters I dump, becuase I will almost be guaranteed to get back a steady supply and still get what I want. AND I get 3 pool for it!
The main thing which makes NewAAA better than old AAA, and I suspect a strong component of Girls Will XYZ, is the ability to just burn deadwood using an MPA to gain a USEFUL MPA from your ashheap. This is done by Anthelios mostly it seems and the most constructive ways to interfere with that is:

1) Kill Anthelios (which usually means taking out the Methuselah controlling it)

2) Find ways to burn cards out of their ashheap (Which ATM is basically Trochomancy).

I can see a lot more scope in the game in the future for increasing the influence of ashheap recursion (and to quote yourself and ICL, add a 4th Core Resource) IF and ONLY IF we increase the influence of interaction with ashheaps generically. I'd take cards from the playbook of G1 Nos, who had a remarkable number of library-peek type abilities scattered throughout.

Why should we then not have vampires with card-texts such as:

1) "Vulture's Buffet": [XYZ] may remove a card from your prey's ashheap from the game gaining 1 blood as a +1 stealth hunt action.

2) "Trochomancy": [XYZ] can burn X cards [chosen by method] from a Meth's ashheap to gain +[bleed/stealth]

3) "Trochomancy of PAIN": [XYZ] can burn X cards [chosen by method] from the ashheap of the controller of the blocking minion to gain +Y strength

4) "Vulture's Buffet of Votes": [XYZ] may remove X political actions from your prey's ashheap to gain +Y additional votes


And so on. These are the ideas that came to the top of my head.

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Last edit: 11 May 2012 21:31 by Juggernaut1981.

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11 May 2012 22:51 #30057 by KevinM

Kevin, you're right about stalling, but I think nc-italy still has a point. Even correct handling of Ashur Tablets can take a long time - for example it's not always obvious which card to take into hand, so the player may spend a few seconds thinking about the game state. It may seem like a minor point compared to Darby's argument based on recursion (pretty damning, IMO), but in a game where timeouts are so prevalent perhaps we should consider the time cost in playing any card.

If players, in general, aren't going to call over a judge when a single point of KRC damage is the subject of a 15 minute discussion, they have no legitimacy when they speak of the 1-2 minutes it takes to manipulate Ashur's effect.

I don't say that toward Emiliano in specific, although I'd suspect that his threshold is similar to the example that I suggest in the example above. It's fairly true for me, and I'd bet for 99% of all players in all games that I've ever played.

Until a majority of players start bitching about every 15 minute discussion for the single point of KRC damage, reasoning about Ashur's ban-worthiness under the suggestion that it takes too much time to manipulate the effect is moot.

(NOTE: If it takes the non-handicapped Ashur player more than 2 minutes to manipulate Ashur's effect, then the players may wish to consider calling a judge to watch the proceedings.)

Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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12 May 2012 02:12 #30059 by Juggernaut1981

When I play Ashur Tablets, which is in about all my decks (most with only one MPA), I keep my "Top 13" cards on the top of my ash heap once I have an ashur on the table. If I feel like I am giving away info, then I put them all together but inside the heap some place. So when I drop my 3rd one, I pull the cards right out, lay them on the table for all to see, pick the one for my hand and go. It takes more time to shuffle than any other part of the move.


For myself, I tend to just literally deal the cards out of my ashheap onto the table as I go through. I takes me more time to choose the cards in JOL than it does in RL.

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
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12 May 2012 09:46 - 12 May 2012 09:47 #30066 by er-principe

If players, in general, aren't going to call over a judge when a single point of KRC damage is the subject of a 15 minute discussion, they have no legitimacy when they speak of the 1-2 minutes it takes to manipulate Ashur's effect.


KRC time, as lengthy as maybe, is table interaction and discussion (which has been deemed to be part of a multi-player ccg such as vtes) between players
Conversely Ashur time recursion and ash heap pickings decision is not
interaction at all, it can pose a timing issue also in the respect of players
(as already said by others) that just play slow not for stalling time but being slow thinkers by their own
13 card recursion from the entire ash heap set of cards has been always ridicously OP to me, besides timing issue that the effect per se poses in the normal flow of turn (in fact by this i've already proposed to change ashur's text narrowing the selection just to minion cards and not also master cards)

best

Emiliano
vekn.net administrators staff
Last edit: 12 May 2012 09:47 by er-principe.

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