Honest Idea for fixing overly strong master cards!

Suoli wrote:

It's fair to say that there are decks in the TWDA that aren't Girls or antiGirls. But that's not my argument.

No, your argument is that

Suoli wrote:

...to cope with the Girls is to play weenie X, Tupdog, Vignes or Wall of Doom. This, IMO, would have a negative effect on the metagame.

Clearly, since there are plenty of decks winning tournaments which aren't included in your list, your contention is based on a perceived problem which doesn't actually exist out in the real world.

Suoli wrote:

I don't think it's fair to say with confidence that Girls hasn't and will not affect the metagame because there are decks in the TWDA that are not Girls or antiGirls.

No one's argued that the deck type hasn't affected the tournament metagame at all. Of course it has; it's become a tournament staple, and all tournament staples affect the metagame. But "affected the metagame" and "forced everyone to play it or one of a very limited number of other decks" aren't even remotely the same thing.

Kushiel wrote:

Suoli wrote:

It's fair to say that there are decks in the TWDA that aren't Girls or antiGirls. But that's not my argument.

No, your argument is that

Suoli wrote:

...to cope with the Girls is to play weenie X, Tupdog, Vignes or Wall of Doom. This, IMO, would have a negative effect on the metagame.

Clearly, since there are plenty of decks winning tournaments which aren't included in your list, your contention is based on a perceived problem which doesn't actually exist out in the real world.

I maintain that decks ("plenty" is subjective and unproven) in the TWDA that aren't Girls or antiGirls does not conclusively prove that there are and will not be an increase in the number of antiGirls decks in tournaments.

Suoli wrote:

I don't think it's fair to say with confidence that Girls hasn't and will not affect the metagame because there are decks in the TWDA that are not Girls or antiGirls.

No one's argued that the deck type hasn't affected the tournament metagame at all. Of course it has; it's become a tournament staplem, and all tournament staples affect the metagame. But "affected the metagame" and "forced everyone to play it or one of a very limited number of other decks" aren't even remotely the same thing.

I haven't argued that everyone has as of this moment been forced to play a limited number of decks.

This exchange seems to be moving toward straw men and nitpicking. I think I'm losing interest.

Suoli wrote:

If I expect to see weenies, Tupdogs, Vignes or Wall of Doom I don't hurl my shitty trick deck at the wall and pick one of those decks to play. I just include Ossian, Aranthebes or Gran Madre di Dio or adjust card ratios. With most decks you can't viably do that against Girls.

Well, the point you seemed to be making was that Cybelle/Daclau being good will warp the play environment and make people play Weenie/Vignes/Tupdog/whatever decks, which will make the game suck, not that you couldn't adjust your decks to deal with them.

I was pointing out that the play environment is already full of those decks (as they are reliable and strong). So if your fear is that Cybelle/Daclau will warp the environment, that train has already left the station.

bakija wrote:

Well, the point you seemed to be making was that Cybelle/Daclau being good will warp the play environment and make people play Weenie/Vignes/Tupdog/whatever decks, which will make the game suck, not that you couldn't adjust your decks to deal with them.

Might.

I was pointing out that the play environment is already full of those decks (as they are reliable and strong). So if your fear is that Cybelle/Daclau will warp the environment, that train has already left the station.

Well, I wouldn't say that the metagame is so warped that it could not warp any more.

I find it interesting that this debate is still going. And yet there is some good conversation and concerns.

However, looking at the last few tournaments there are no girls decks. Looking back a little further there are not an over abundance to say the least. More than some other deck archetypes? Absolutely. But, it was a catchy archetype that many people have tried out this year. And every year there seems to be some debate as to the power of the latest trend. Again, parity shift anyone? 10 pool swing is nuts, but it has not derailed this years tournaments. Yet, in the past there were high hopes and expectations the card would get banned. Thankfully that did not happen.

And this last year there are several cards that have made decks better. In particular Master cards. Villein and Lilith's Blessing for sure. Others such as Wider View have seen there way into many decks. And considering all of this I am glad as it has brought about change in an otherwise stale environment. It forces adaptation and people to think of new ways to handle things like Girls and now things that are more viable that previously were not Tier 1.

To the powers that be, if this Prince has any say in the overall voice I believe things should stay the same for now.

Decks that were efficient and tier 1 before Girls became prevalent can all oust or defend themselves against the Girls deck without any modification.

What the deck do, though, is that it cannot (save extreme measures) be ousted or defended against by inefficient decks. This is quite unique in V:tes, which is probably the reason it's winning inordinately much. You cannot have a 90-card deck with Confusion of the Eye, Touch of Pain or Wider View if you're going up against Girls.

I think Girls appearance on the tournament scene is good because it forces players to optimize their decks and reduce it's size, which is good for the game.

More to the topic:
You'd remove offensive cards (Pentex Subversion, Anarch Troublemaker) in favor of defensive cards (Sudden Reversal, Wash)? This rule suggestion would increase time-outs and make the game more boring, in my opinion. I can see the case you're making for Ashur Tablets and Villein, but Pentex Subversion and Anarch Troublemaker are good for the game.