Dragons Breath vs. Majesty

You are effectively declaring your strike earlier in the round, like locking yourself into a strike by using a card such as Thrown Gate or Aid from Bats.

Nope. Being committed to using a strike doesn't mean you're declaring it.

For instance, if you maneuver to long range with a Saturday Night Special, committing yourself to using that very weapon to strike, and the opposing maneuvers back to close range and plays Immortal Grapple, you declare no strike.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

I don't want to sound objectionable, but really we need to have one ruling about how the phrase "Before X" works that applies to all cards and not have a patchwork of rulings which add increased complexity to new players for no significant benefits. I cannot see ANY benefit in stopping Ammo cards from being played at any point before the resolution of a gun's strike. I'm not trying to crap on LSJs legacy, but I can't see why we should keep this ruling since it seems to only remove gameplay options** and increase complexity.

I think the intention behind the wording of ammo cards was to limit their use to only when a strike with a gun has been successfully made.

Ammo. Only usable before resolution of a gun's strike.

Juggernaut is saying that simply having the potential of a gun strike is sufficient to fulfill the "before" requirement, thus ammo can be played at any point in combat up until strike resolution if a gun is present.

I would agree with Pascal that a strike with a gun MUST be declared before the ammo card can be played. Until the strike is declared, it is not possible to know for certain if the condition of the ammo card will be fulfilled.

However, I agree with Juggernaut and others that nothing in the current wording should prevent an ammo card from being played before the other minion's strike is declared.

A root of this issue might come from the original wording of the ammo cards. My VTES edition of DBR says "Only usable when damage from a gun is being resolved." Under that wording, you would have to wait for both strikes to be declared before playing the card since it was played during damage resolution.

Now cards that modify strikes can only be played effectively before strike resolution, rules reference VI.C.1.c. That reference even says that they can be played earlier.

Ammo card text was appropriately updated, but doing so also changed the original timing window of those cards. Perhaps LSJ did not consider ammo cards to be strike modifiers, but rather cards that are played during the strike resolution window.

Or maybe the issue is that there is no window to play strike modifiers between the strike declarations of the two combatants? I don't think that's the case, but who knows?

Pascal wrote:

Nope. Being committed to using a strike doesn't mean you're declaring it.

For instance, if you maneuver to long range with a Saturday Night Special, committing yourself to using that very weapon to strike, and the opposing maneuvers back to close range and plays Immortal Grapple, you declare no strike.

How is committing to a strike in the range step not also declaring that atrike? I can accept that a strike that was declaring previously in the round cannot be effective (e.g. declaring a gun strike by using a maneuver before an Immortal Grapple was played) but at the point where you choose the Maneuver from the gun, you're also locked into striking with the gun. So it seems sensible that you could also play the Ammo card after that point (under the present text) since you are:

a) in effect declaring a strike with the gun
b) before the resolution of that strike


Regarding the effect Immortal Grapple would have on the strike is far easier. Immortal Grapple renders any strikes previously declared that are no longer valid as "declared but invalid" rather than "forced into a non-strike". This removes the discontinuity of a vampire choosing a non-handstrike before the the playing of Immortal Grapple and the vampire then choosing a "non-strike" in the "strike declaration" step.
This would mean that Immortal Grapple cancels the effect of non-hand strike strikes chosen before Immortal Grapple was played (but does not cancel the declaration of that strike as well).


Regarding DBR + Gun + Immortal Grapple. Since there is no gun strike (Immortal Grapple effectively cancelling the effect the gun strike) then the effects of the DBR (or another ammo card) are also cancelled. To give an example:

Beast enters a combat with Joaquin Murietta (Joaquin is the acting minion). Joaquin has a Saturday Night Special and uses it for a Maneuver (thereby also Declaring the Strike: 1R from the Gun and excluding himself from choosing another Strike). Beast maneuvers back to close. Joaquin plays a Scattershot Ammo card before the "Declare Strike" Step. Beast responds by playing Immortal Grapple. Joaquin has declared his strike (and because of it was able to play the original Scattershot) but the Immortal Grapple cancels the effects of the strike (but not cancel the strike so that another strike cannot be declared) and Beast declares a hand strike (e.g. Pushing the Limit etc).

Thanks Vincent, I'll fix that in the next Rulebook version.

@Juggernaut1981: You're still making the confusion between "having to choose strike: X" and "choosing strike: X".
Declaration of strike includes the target (for instance, you could go to long range and shoot the Raven Spy - but the target is part of the declaration of the strike, which is done when choosing the strike).
See this ruling from LSJ: [LSJ 20080409] (which also introduces the Aim card).

@ Aaron: The switch to "before strike resolution" was to have Rötschreck playable. Here's the RTR making the change: [RTR 19990105]

Ammo (Dragon's Breath Rounds, Glaser Rounds, Manstopper Rounds)
Are played "before resolution of a gun's strike", not "when damage from a
gun is being resolved". That is, it is played after the strike is announced,
but before the strike resolution phase.
#
# Doesn't change much of anything, but helps resolve an inconsistency
# regarding Rotschreck. The timing is now consistent with Claws.