Rulings: Groundfighting

finbury wrote:

Here's a related question:

Minion A has Potence.
Minion B has a Meat Hook.

Minion B plays Drawing Out the Beast. Based on LSJ's ruling Dec 16 2010, this would render A unable to strike to destroy the Meat Hook. Can A cancel with Groundfighting?

Meat Hook - Equipment
Melee weapon.
Strike: strength+1 damage, only usable once each round. Once each combat, if this weapon is used to strike at close range and the opponent doesn't dodge the strike, the bearer gets an optional press this round, only usable to continue combat. At close range, a vampire with Potence may destroy this weapon as a strike with first strike that costs 1 blood.

Drawing Out the Beast - Combat
Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Frenzy.
During this combat, opposing vampire gets +1 strength, but he or she cannot use maneuvers to maneuver to long range, cannot use presses to end combat and cannot use equipment. A vampire may play only one Drawing Out the Beast each combat.
...

Doesn't DotB affect the opposing minion? In this case, if B played it, then A would get the +1 strength, maneuver/press/equipment restrictions.

As it stands, no strikes are being restricted. So Groundfighting cannot be played, me thinks.

Aaron wrote:

Molloy wrote:

DotB would not restrict such a minion's choice of strike. Their own lack of Potence restricts their choice.

But the reason the vampire would lack Potence is because of DotB.

Doesn't count as restricting strikes.

[LSJ 20050224]

LSJ wrote:

> Side DotB question number two: If the anarch has Potence thanks to Eye
> of Hazimel, and wants to play a Potence-requiring strike, can DotB be
> canceled by Groundfighting even though the Eye itself doesn't grant a
> strike?

No. See the already-discussed Weakness.

CryWolf wrote:

Doesn't DotB affect the opposing minion?

It does. The "destroy the Meat Hook" strike also affects the opposing minion, however, by giving them the option to destroy it.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Aaron wrote:

Molloy wrote:

DotB would not restrict such a minion's choice of strike. Their own lack of Potence restricts their choice.

But the reason the vampire would lack Potence is because of DotB.

Doesn't count as restricting strikes.

[LSJ 20050224]

LSJ wrote:

> Side DotB question number two: If the anarch has Potence thanks to Eye
> of Hazimel, and wants to play a Potence-requiring strike, can DotB be
> canceled by Groundfighting even though the Eye itself doesn't grant a
> strike?

No. See the already-discussed Weakness.

I didn't see any discussion on Weakness.

Here I disagree with LSJ, because the analogy he draws is incorrect. Weakness destroys a skill card, but the vampire with the skill card can still choose a strike that requires the discipline card that round (assuming that we are not considering possible additional strikes). In other words, Weakness does not restrict an opposing vampire's choice of (at least initial) strike.

A card like DotB that, at the beginning of combat, prevents a vampire from using disciplines gained from equipment completely prevents the vampire from choosing a strike that requires the discipline gained from the equipment.

I have a practical argument, independantly of existing ruling, against allowing groundfight in the DotB / Eye of Hazimel case : the presence of potence strike card is unknown. So, you don't kniw whether the DotB is restraining your strike choice or not.

It doesn't say that the presence of a strike card in hand has to be known.

Under your logic, Groundfighting could not cancel superior Thoughts Betrayed, since sup. TB prevents the playing of strike cards from the hand, and it isn't known if that restricts the vampire's choice of strikes since it isn't known if the player has any strike cards in hand playable by that vampire.

If a vampire has a discipline, then potentially he could declare any strike that requires that discipline as long as he could pay the cost.

Groundfighting could cancel basic Skin Trap, for instance, even if the vampire did not have an inherent strike: dodge from text or equipment, because the vampire might have a dodge in hand.

Groundfighting could always cancel Immortal Grapple, regardless of what inherent strikes a vampire had showing, since it prevents the playing of non-hand strikes from cards in hand.

The only exception to this would be if the player's last card in his hand was Groundfighting and he had exhausted his library or couldn't replace cards in his hand because of Meddling of Semsith.