question-circle Rulings: Groundfighting

13 Dec 2011 07:11 #18216 by jamesatzephyr

Without a specific ruling, yes, I think that Weather Control could be cancelled by Groundfighting. Ankha gave a satisfactory explanation to me to the more limited reading of Groundfighting, so I agree with both of you there.


Okay, it's now 100% clear that you're not even bothering to do even the slightest reading of existing rulings before telling people how it is.

From a post that has already been linked to:
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/7468b82b3e1d461a

> Thin Blood at [qui/QUI]: "Only usable at close range before strikes are
> chosen. The opposing vampire burns 1 blood." If Thin Blood removes all
> the blood from an anarch who wishes to play a strike that costs 1 blood,
> can Thin Blood be canceled with Groundfighting? (Basically the same
> question applies to Wave of Lethargy at [QUI].)

No.

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13 Dec 2011 08:29 - 13 Dec 2011 13:24 #18224 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Rulings: Groundfighting
Ok, the link provided by Jamesatzephyr is quite clear.

I think we must distinguish three cases:
A) cards that *actively* restricts your strike choice: Immortal Grapple, Drawing Out the Beast when you have a known weapon equiped, Thoughts Betrayed (restricts to non-card strikes). They usually state "minion can't <do something related to a strike or a source of strike>". GF works.
B) cards that *indirectly*, *maybe* restricts (or not) your strike choice: buring/preventing the use of an Eye of Hazimel, destroying a skill card on you, burning blood from you (Blood to Water, Weather Control) that would allow you to pay a strike cost (you can still regain blood and strike the way you want) GF doesn't work.
C) Cards that remove the ability to strike at all (Lapse, Thoughts Betrayed). They're not restricting your strike choice. If you could strike, you could still strike like you want. (Against Lapse, you can for instance gain additionnal strike and strike the way you want.) GF doesn't work.

In case B, we could add Blood to Water: by burning blood on the vampire before the strikes are chosen, you *may* restrict his strike choice (for example the vampire can't pay the blood cost of a *possible* strike). It's not the way it's supposed to work from the designer's intent.

(Note that GF could *maybe* cancel Blood to Water if played against a minion that has a build-in strike that costs blood, such as The unnamed). => No, see case B above.

To make it simple: if it's 100% sure the card restricts your strike choice, you can play GF. Otherwise, you can't.


So GF can't be used to cancel Blood to Water, even with The unnamed because it doesn't stop you *actively* ("you can't blabla") from using a strike. You could even regain blood with a Coven and still strike, proving that your choice hasn't been restricted.

I completed my definitions above

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 13 Dec 2011 13:24 by Ankha.

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13 Dec 2011 09:08 #18225 by Pascal Bertrand
I'm keeping an eye on this one. James' answers are correct, but maybe some "clarification" is needed (DotB w/o weapon can't be GF'd might be too weird)
The following user(s) said Thank You: CryWolf, Boris The Blade, miketheknife

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13 Dec 2011 10:45 #18231 by miketheknife
Thx Pascal, i'm really satisfied with the result of the discussion.

When i started this thread, the whole point was to state that current ruling were "crystal clear", but there was a big corner case in the definition of "restrict... choice of strikes".
IMO, if you can come out with a generic, applicable definition of that line, the whole mess is clear.

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13 Dec 2011 11:59 #18243 by drnlmza
Replied by drnlmza on topic Re: Rulings: Groundfighting

C) Cards that remove the ability to strike at all (Lapse, Thoughts Betrayed). They're not restricting your strike choice. If you could strike, you could still strike like you want. (Against Lapse, you can for instance gain additionnal strike and strike the way you want.) GF doesn't work.

A small quibble here. Thoughts Betrayed isn't restricting the ability to strike - it's "cannot play strike cards", which looks a lot like a restriction on choice of strikes to me. And, as seen on the rulings page:

Groundfighting:
  • Can cancel superior Thoughts Betrayed and Shape Mastery (when the latter is used to cancel a strike) [LSJ 20050222] [LSJ 20050223]
  • Cannot cancel restricting the ability to strike and/or gain additional strikes (e.g., Rigor Mortis, Lapse) [LSJ 20050221] [LSJ 20050222] [LSJ 20050223]

Only usable before range is determined on the first round.
:dom: Opposing minion takes 1 additional damage in the first round of combat during normal strike resolution.
:DOM: Opposing minion cannot play any strike cards for the duration of this combat.


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13 Dec 2011 13:21 #18260 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Rulings: Groundfighting
You're right, I fix that.

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