Dual Form question		
	
	
			
	
						04 May 2013 16:47		 -  04 May 2013 16:49		#48185
		by Borris
	
	
		
			
	
	
			 		
													
		
	
				Dual Form question was created by Borris			
			
				Can a Sterile vampire with PRO play Dual Form at Superior?
My logic in favour is that Sterile refers to putting other vampires in play and Dual Form is clearly the same vampire splitting into two; thematically (and potentially in the wording of the sterile definition) it makes sense that they can play Dual Form at PRO.
There are currently 3 vampires that have PRO and are sterile:
Name; Clan; Grouping; Capacity;
Pariah Abomination 2 6
Zubeida Abomination 5 8
Sylvie Helgon Ahrimane 6 9
Sterile: Sterile vampires cannot take actions to put other vampires in play.
Dual Form:
PRO = This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region, the other is burned.
Thanks.
					My logic in favour is that Sterile refers to putting other vampires in play and Dual Form is clearly the same vampire splitting into two; thematically (and potentially in the wording of the sterile definition) it makes sense that they can play Dual Form at PRO.
There are currently 3 vampires that have PRO and are sterile:
Name; Clan; Grouping; Capacity;
Pariah Abomination 2 6
Zubeida Abomination 5 8
Sylvie Helgon Ahrimane 6 9
Sterile: Sterile vampires cannot take actions to put other vampires in play.
Dual Form:
PRO = This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region, the other is burned.
Thanks.
		Last edit: 04 May 2013 16:49  by Borris.			
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						04 May 2013 19:04				#48187
		by Ankha
	
	
		
			
	
			
			 		
													
		
	
				Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Dual Form question			
			
				Dual Form at superior is an action that puts a vampire in play.
Sterile vampires can't play Dual Form at superior.
							
					Sterile vampires can't play Dual Form at superior.
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						04 May 2013 20:34				#48189
		by Borris
	
	
		
			
				
My point was that thematically the above is wrong. Dual forming has nothing to do with sterility, unlike embracing people, hence my question. Allowing it would only effect 3 vampires currently, none of whom see serious play. Dual Form at PRO already has a cost of 2 , a permanent-1 capacity effect and a very difficult to control symbiotic burn relationship, so it is already very different from the other embrace cards (embrace, creation rites, 3rd trad progeny, becoming etc).
					
	
			
			 		
													
		
	
				Replied by Borris on topic Re: Dual Form question			
			Dual Form at superior is an action that puts a vampire in play.
Sterile vampires can't play Dual Form at superior.
My point was that thematically the above is wrong. Dual forming has nothing to do with sterility, unlike embracing people, hence my question. Allowing it would only effect 3 vampires currently, none of whom see serious play. Dual Form at PRO already has a cost of 2 , a permanent-1 capacity effect and a very difficult to control symbiotic burn relationship, so it is already very different from the other embrace cards (embrace, creation rites, 3rd trad progeny, becoming etc).
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						04 May 2013 22:19		 -  04 May 2013 22:21		#48190
		by Franz
	
	
		
			
				
There are many things that are thematically wrong in the game, from a an stray dog being able to fly a Learjet, to the capacity of some vampires conflicting with V;tM cannon (Gratiano was supposed to be the Lasombra antediluviana child, yet he is younger than Lambach that is Tzismisce's grandchild, for instance, and Sutekh is a hell lot older than Hardestadt the younger, not same age).
From the game mechanics standpoint, however, cards that have the text "put this card in play... it becomes a X capacity vampire" are considered actions to put a vampire in play and therefore can't be taken by Sterile vampires.
You could make an argument about the balance of such a rule regarding Dual Form, but I guess that would be a thread better made in the Suggestion board as opposed to the Rules Questions board, that is about the rules as they stand right now.
					
	
	
			 		
													
		
	
				Replied by Franz on topic Re: Dual Form question			
			
Dual Form at superior is an action that puts a vampire in play.
Sterile vampires can't play Dual Form at superior.
My point was that thematically the above is wrong. Dual forming has nothing to do with sterility, unlike embracing people, hence my question. Allowing it would only effect 3 vampires currently, none of whom see serious play. Dual Form at PRO already has a cost of 2 , a permanent-1 capacity effect and a very difficult to control symbiotic burn relationship, so it is already very different from the other embrace cards (embrace, creation rites, 3rd trad progeny, becoming etc).
There are many things that are thematically wrong in the game, from a an stray dog being able to fly a Learjet, to the capacity of some vampires conflicting with V;tM cannon (Gratiano was supposed to be the Lasombra antediluviana child, yet he is younger than Lambach that is Tzismisce's grandchild, for instance, and Sutekh is a hell lot older than Hardestadt the younger, not same age).
From the game mechanics standpoint, however, cards that have the text "put this card in play... it becomes a X capacity vampire" are considered actions to put a vampire in play and therefore can't be taken by Sterile vampires.
You could make an argument about the balance of such a rule regarding Dual Form, but I guess that would be a thread better made in the Suggestion board as opposed to the Rules Questions board, that is about the rules as they stand right now.
		Last edit: 04 May 2013 22:21  by Franz.			
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						04 May 2013 23:56				#48191
		by ReverendRevolver
	
	
		
			
	
	
			 		
													
		
				Replied by ReverendRevolver on topic Re: Dual Form question			
			
				Whats so wrong with underbridge stray flying a learjet? Or operating an ivorg bow? 
Its hardly the most broken thing about animalism........
					Its hardly the most broken thing about animalism........
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						05 May 2013 06:25				#48192
		by Ohlmann
	
	
		
			
	
			
			 		
													
		
	
				Replied by Ohlmann on topic Re: Dual Form question			
			
				It's one of the case where the rule have chosen to be simple as opposed to be intuitive. It would "make sense" that sup' dual form is not affected by sterility, but it would require an errata or convoluted sterility rule, for objectively allowing weak vampire to play a weak card. It does not seem worth it.			
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