Tribunal Judgment and cancelled votes

Robert wrote:

I cannot see how it may be "hard to remember what the vampire's final vote was" when that tally is integral to the final outcome of the referendum, due to passing or not passing and Voter Capping, etc.

It was a referendum called by your prey. The trip round the table since then has been tense, involving a lot of negotiation and deal-making. Your grand-predator is playing a Followers of Set deck for the first time, and tries to play Eternals of Sirius while on four pool. That's not legal, I know a read a ruling about that, says your predator. So someone gets out a smartphone and searches for the ruling, to see if it's legal or not. (It is.) Pizza arrives earlier than expected, and the game has to be delayed while everyone sorts out cash quickly. And one of the players needs a quick bathroom break. Then it gets round to your turn. Your prey's turn was quite difficult, because you all worried he was going to roll the table, so you all conspired to delay his votes. On one of them, you used Scalpel Tongue. On another, your grand-prey used Delaying Tactics. Which way round was that? You made careful note of it, because you had a Tribunal Judgment in your hand (or knew you had two of them in your deck), but you didn't want to flag up "I am going to play Tribunal Judgment!" to all the other players on the table, so they didn't make a special note of it, and one other player on the table has a different memory.

I cannot see how you cannot see that remembering historic game state may be tricky.

This makes me wonder: if the last referendum was cancelled by Delaying Tactics or something like that, does it count as "the last referendum" and votes cast there can harm you with tribunal judgement?

Caballero wrote:

This makes me wonder: if the last referendum was cancelled by Delaying Tactics or something like that, does it count as "the last referendum" and votes cast there can harm you with tribunal judgement?

It's the most recent referendum. DT doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that it got prematurely terminated.

Hah!!

jamesatzephyr wrote:

My issue is with other cards that look at how the votes were cast, which - to me - generally appear to be saying "If the vampire/Methuselah was casting votes in such a way at the time of tallying, then..."
...
But I can't find precedent.

Precedent!

And here's what it looked like in V:TES, which was the MRP for the 2001 ruling I'm about to quote: vtes.pl/card/39440 . The card text is basically the same.

[LSJ 20010211]

LSJ wrote:

If a vampire tries to vote against a referendum and has his votes
canceled (or changed to be in favor), he is not considered to be
voting against the referendum when the results are tallied,
by the explicit text of the effect, so Scorn won't care that he
tried to vote against.

Similarly, if he votes for, but has his vote changed to be against,
Scorn will notice that when the results are tallied (unless some
subsequent effect cancels or changes the vote(s) back)...

So it looks like historic checks look at the voting outcome during the tally, not the swaying back and forth that might happen from effects changing the way you vote.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

(SNIPPED STUFF) Im at work, but my best idea is ask a magic 8 ball......(seriously. Buy one. Its a good edge....)

(SNIPPED STUFF)

I have felt this many times regarding LSJ's rulings.