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file No Block Declaration & Eagle Sight

11 Dec 2014 13:32 - 11 Dec 2014 13:34 #68114 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Re: No Block Declaration & Eagle Sight

Only B declined. C has said nothing in your scenario.


However, that silence might be taken to be a declaration of "no blocks", just as saying nothing for a sufficient period of time may be taken to indicate that you're not playing Direct Intervention, or have no votes to cast in a referendum, or that another player isn't going to use Heidelberg so you can move on to your next action etc.

My original answer contained something like this, but it's wrong to assume that saying nothing means you don't interact. It's usually the reverse in fact: people thinking about interacting are usually silent at the beginning.


That's pretty much why the ruling refers to a period of attentive silence, and not just any silence.

People tend to concentrate in that case and be silent. He could say "wait! I may DI" but then he would give away the information he has a DI before thinking whether it's pertinent or not to DI in the end.


Some information is given away either way - either about subsequent action modifiers/as action is announced effects, or other similar fun.

You should, however, be trying to stop the Methuselah moving on if you have doubts about what you want to do. For example, when the acting Methuselah is saying "And then I play...", you should stop them, if you can.

Or in the OP scenario, if A bleeds B and B has already begun to remove his pool, C could still be thinking about playing the Eagle's Sight or not.


Sure, that's common. The moving of the pool is often B's declaration of no blocks. C should intervene as soon as she can.


C can't be denied the opportunity to interact by players playing too fast.


The ruling isn't about people playing too fast. It's about someone asking the table for blocks, and taking the silence as consent. People have not ever, do not ever, and will not ever announce every single pass of the impulse.


So it's entirely up to the judge to say if A played too fast or not, and if C has still the opportunity to interact, and whether the situation should be rollbacked or not.


Sure. This is, in fact, why I provided the ruling that explains it might be taken a declination, with appropriate caveats.
Last edit: 11 Dec 2014 13:34 by jamesatzephyr.

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11 Dec 2014 15:48 - 11 Dec 2014 15:56 #68115 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: No Block Declaration & Eagle Sight

- if I play Govern the Unaligned, please interject as soon as you can if you're thinking about playing Direct Intervention, because you should be making that decision without knowing that I go on to play Seduction as the action is announced
- if you play Govern the Unaligned, please don't slam down Seduction and use that as justification to deny me the chance to play Direct Intervention.

I don't know how you manage to reconcile both. Your first point looks irrealistic to me (I'm giving more details in case 2 below). Your second point is indeed a simple matter of fair-play if you deny the opponent the window of interaction. But most of the time, players play cards at a normal rate, just because they have planned overhead the sequence of cards they'll play (jump again to the case 2 that I describe below).

For instance, I have GtU + Seduction to play.

1/ I'm aware someone may DI
I play GtU. I ask if anyone DI. Then I replace. Then I play Seduction. Then I ask if anyone DI etc.
In that case, there's no problem since I've asked everyone, and everyone has declined.

Now, the big point:

2/ I'm not aware someone may DI
I play GtU, I replace. I play afterwards (without pausing, or with a very little pause) Seduction and I replace.
During that course of event, it's very hard to interrupt me (especially before I replace). It would require the DIing player to have planned my moves and think: "as soon as he plays GtU, I play the DI". This is very rare.
I, on the other hand, know that I'm going to play a Seduction afterwards. I'll always have a faster pace than a player reacting to something unknown beforehand.

So should I have played slow...ly... pausing... between.... each... card.... and... also... before... replacing... them? It would take ages if everyone was pausing that way. It would cause a real time limit problem.

Rollbacking is sometimes better.
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Last edit: 11 Dec 2014 15:56 by Ankha.

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11 Dec 2014 15:54 #68116 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: No Block Declaration & Eagle Sight

C can't be denied the opportunity to interact by players playing too fast.


The ruling isn't about people playing too fast. It's about someone asking the table for blocks, and taking the silence as consent. People have not ever, do not ever, and will not ever announce every single pass of the impulse.

I think we agree on the same thing, I was just pointing out something else.

A asking "any blocks?" and looking at all the players (including C) is not the same as A asking "do you block" to the target of the bleed, and then playing a Conditioning without even looking at C.
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12 Dec 2014 19:56 #68144 by Dorrinal
Replied by Dorrinal on topic Re: No Block Declaration & Eagle Sight

C can't be denied the opportunity to interact by players playing too fast.


The ruling isn't about people playing too fast. It's about someone asking the table for blocks, and taking the silence as consent. People have not ever, do not ever, and will not ever announce every single pass of the impulse.


Great discussion. I wanted to jump in here and say that in my experience, this never happens. Here's how bleeds/(D) actions happen in the real world:

A taps his minion and looks at his prey.
A: Bleed for 1.
B: No block.
A: Make it 4 with Conditioning.
[C: I'm going to step in with Eagle's Sight.]

No one asks the table, and A doesn't pause before playing a modifier. Most importantly, we shouldn't expect it to ever happen either. This is how we play the game. So the most important question is: do we roll back the modifier or not? Which has been answered to my satisfaction.
:trem:

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12 Dec 2014 21:58 - 12 Dec 2014 21:59 #68146 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Re: No Block Declaration & Eagle Sight

C can't be denied the opportunity to interact by players playing too fast.


The ruling isn't about people playing too fast. It's about someone asking the table for blocks, and taking the silence as consent. People have not ever, do not ever, and will not ever announce every single pass of the impulse.


Great discussion. I wanted to jump in here and say that in my experience, this never happens.


The ruling applies to all actions (indeed, potentially all handling of the impulse), and this sort of thing can happen a fair amount on undirected actions. It's a decent habit to acquire, though, if you can manage it, even on directed actions, because otherwise you can have players jumping in saying "Dammit, I'm gonna block that" before I've had chance to redraw and find I've drawn a Seduction, causing information leaks and acrimony.

(Of course, the real world is never, ever perfect.)

So the most important question is: do we roll back the modifier or not? Which has been answered to my satisfaction.


1) In all situations, if someone is trying to rush past the time where you can play a card, stop them and play it.

2) If they rush by that timing window by announcing another effect, roll that back.

3) If oodles of time has clearly passed (e.g. we're well into a stealth/intercept war and someone says "Actually, I want to DI that Govern") and they were clearly aware of stuff happening, it's likely to be way too late.

4) Everything else:
a) try to be a helpful player both as the acting and defending Methuselah
b) call a judge, if necessary.
Last edit: 12 Dec 2014 21:59 by jamesatzephyr.

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15 Dec 2014 01:30 #68174 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Re: No Block Declaration & Eagle Sight
Specifically, as a "rule", if you are playing a killing conditionning, pause to ask the table if they want to block...

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