No Secrets from Vlad Tepes
04 Apr 2018 04:25 #86145
by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes
Also, I'm not trying to be daft, but I think my interpretation is a fair reading of the card. If I hadn't been on the forums, I would have made rulings based on that.
I get that 'use' is not continuous and that makes sense, given the previous explanations, but 'play and use' being one set does not. Here's a game example of the problem:
Two (or more players) in the game have Kduva's Mask in their decks, one of them is Vlad's controller. If Vlad has the Mask on him and the judge walks by how does the judge know whether Vlad diablerized someone for it or equipped it himself? The game state is not discernable without remembering what happened possibly quite some time earlier. And what if those Masks contest? When it comes back into play, it's washed clean of history. So, Vlad couldn't use it even if he equipped it before it was contested.
These are complications and extra steps and machinations that are unnecessary to remember if the two sets can be different.
I get that 'use' is not continuous and that makes sense, given the previous explanations, but 'play and use' being one set does not. Here's a game example of the problem:
Two (or more players) in the game have Kduva's Mask in their decks, one of them is Vlad's controller. If Vlad has the Mask on him and the judge walks by how does the judge know whether Vlad diablerized someone for it or equipped it himself? The game state is not discernable without remembering what happened possibly quite some time earlier. And what if those Masks contest? When it comes back into play, it's washed clean of history. So, Vlad couldn't use it even if he equipped it before it was contested.
These are complications and extra steps and machinations that are unnecessary to remember if the two sets can be different.
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04 Apr 2018 04:57 #86146
by Boris The Blade
Replied by Boris The Blade on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes
I agree that this can of worms would better not be opened. The big issue here is turning a mandatory effect into a voluntary one. That means the effect must now be declared, that declaration must be done at a given time, be valid for a given scope,... There is no basis in the rules to govern any of that, so all that can be done is throw random rulings around.
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04 Apr 2018 06:44 - 04 Apr 2018 06:48 #86147
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes
"Vlad can play and use cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect."
"cards requiring a title or a sect" indicate the set of cards Vlad "can play and use" with his ability. "Requiring..." always refer to the requirement to play the card (not to use it).
See also Heroic Might + Increased Strength (groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/e2PNDpg-l_c/wqEDxGHKJQgJ)
How can he "play and use" them? => "as if he had that title or were of that clan"
Name: Purchase Pact
Cardtype: Master
Unique master. Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent.
Put this card into play. When a Sabbat vampire you control is in combat with another Sabbat vampire, you may lock this card before range is determined to end combat. Any titled Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action.
"cards requiring a title or a sect" indicate the set of cards Vlad "can play and use" with his ability. "Requiring..." always refer to the requirement to play the card (not to use it).
See also Heroic Might + Increased Strength (groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/e2PNDpg-l_c/wqEDxGHKJQgJ)
How can he "play and use" them? => "as if he had that title or were of that clan"
No, quite the opposite: the card requires a "a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent" so Vlad can use it (to call a referendum to burn the card) as if he were one of them. That's why he fulfills the "Any titled Sabbat vampire" part of the effect.So, in the case of the Purchase Pact, are you saying that Vlad cannot call the political action then? He cannot play the card "as if," therefore he cannot use it "as if."
Name: Purchase Pact
Cardtype: Master
Unique master. Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent.
Put this card into play. When a Sabbat vampire you control is in combat with another Sabbat vampire, you may lock this card before range is determined to end combat. Any titled Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action.
Last edit: 04 Apr 2018 06:48 by Ankha.
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04 Apr 2018 08:02 #86148
by Lönkka
Uh oh, what?
I don't get it.
Is this only relevant to Vlad?
And if so why (aren't "other" Magaji with NSFTM affected by this limitation)?
To me this feels like the situation where a vampire with Sport Bike (+1 intercept) wouldn't be allowed to block a no stealth action since intercept isn't yet needed.
VERY counterintuitive!
For Bowl he needs to burn a blood and form WMRH he needs to tap WMRH.
For NSFTM he doesn't need to do anything as NSFTM grants him +1 intercept.
Replied by Lönkka on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes
Back to Vlad Tepes: "This Magaji" refers to Vlad Tepes when he's using the card, that is when he either uses the intercept provided by the card or the "can block as if unlocked" ability*
* note that in that case, he's forced to use the +1 intercept part too. As soon as he's using the card, he gains both abilities.**
** this leads to a limitation to Vlad Tepes using the No Secrets: if Vlad is locked and a vampire with no stealth is acting, Vlad can't use the No Secrets to block that vampire since he would gain intercept that is not needed
Uh oh, what?
I don't get it.
Is this only relevant to Vlad?
And if so why (aren't "other" Magaji with NSFTM affected by this limitation)?
To me this feels like the situation where a vampire with Sport Bike (+1 intercept) wouldn't be allowed to block a no stealth action since intercept isn't yet needed.
VERY counterintuitive!
, the same way he wouldn't be able to burn 1 blood with a Bowl of Convergence, or lock a WMRH Talk Radio to gain intercept.
For Bowl he needs to burn a blood and form WMRH he needs to tap WMRH.
For NSFTM he doesn't need to do anything as NSFTM grants him +1 intercept.
Finnish
Politics!

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04 Apr 2018 09:45 - 04 Apr 2018 09:47 #86152
by Ankha
A standard Magaji wouldn't be affected since NSftM is always effective.
Replied by Ankha on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes
It's only relevant to Vlad who doesn't use it continuously.Is this only relevant to Vlad?
And if so why (aren't "other" Magaji with NSFTM affected by this limitation)?
A standard Magaji wouldn't be affected since NSftM is always effective.
No, because Sport Bike's bonus is always effective.To me this feels like the situation where a vampire with Sport Bike (+1 intercept) wouldn't be allowed to block a no stealth action since intercept isn't yet needed.
Vlad has to "use" it to get the intercept and the "block as if..." ability. Otherwise the NSftM has no effect. And Vlad can't use it if he doesn't need intercept (rulebook)
, the same way he wouldn't be able to burn 1 blood with a Bowl of Convergence, or lock a WMRH Talk Radio to gain intercept.
For Bowl he needs to burn a blood and form WMRH he needs to tap WMRH.
For NSFTM he doesn't need to do anything as NSFTM grants him +1 intercept.
Last edit: 04 Apr 2018 09:47 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka
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04 Apr 2018 10:30 #86153
by Kraus
I'm like, what.
I would NOT be able to read that from the card texts alone.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
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Replied by Kraus on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes
My thoughts exactly.VERY counterintuitive!
I'm like, what.
I would NOT be able to read that from the card texts alone.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
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