file No Secrets from Vlad Tepes

03 Apr 2018 15:59 #86139 by Killiam
Replied by Killiam on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes

Back to Vlad Tepes: "This Magaji" refers to Vlad Tepes when he's using the card, that is when he either uses the intercept provided by the card or the "can block as if unlocked" ability*. In that case the card would burn if he fails to block.

If he's not using the card and fails to block, the card doesn't burn.


Great! This ruling is clear.

* note that in that case, he's forced to use the +1 intercept part too. As soon as he's using the card, he gains both abilities.**

** this leads to a limitation to Vlad Tepes using the No Secrets: if Vlad is locked and a vampire with no stealth is acting, Vlad can't use the No Secrets to block that vampire since he would gain intercept that is not needed, the same way he wouldn't be able to burn 1 blood with a Bowl of Convergence, or lock a WMRH Talk Radio to gain intercept.


Oh, wow. So Vlad with NSftM is not so great after all. Thanks for the ruling!

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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03 Apr 2018 19:00 #86140 by kschaefer

If he's not using the card and fails to block, the card doesn't burn.

This seems clear, using a card requires an explicit activation. This leads to more questions, especially regarding some of Floppy's rulings in the thread James cited .

Purchase Pact is in play. Can Vlad Tepes call the +1 stealth political action to burn it? "Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. ... Any titled Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action.

Yes.

What about Powerbase: New York? "Any Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah can take a (D) action to move all the blood on the 'base to his or her controller's blood pool.

No, the card (Powerbase: New York) doesn't require a vampire with a specific title / sect, so Vlad cannot use it.

The reason for the two eaxmples is that Purchase Pact requires a title to play, but also to use the action. Powerbase: NY does not require a title or sect to play, but does require a sect to use its move action.

Which is why Vlad's cardtext allows Vlad to use Purchase Pact, but not to use Powerbase: New York.

1. Per previous rulings , you cannot use Vlad to play master cards. This is inline with the Kemintiri (Adv) ruling. He is missing the "You and" clause.

2. The quoted thread suggests Vlad is able to play Purchase Pact, and based upon that reasoning rules that the Purchase Pact political action is available to Vlad, but the Powerbase: New York steal option is not. We know that ruling is partially incorrect, but there is a clear intention from Pascal to indicate that Vlad can only use cards "as if" that he plays "as if."

Does Vlad need to be able to play a card "as if" to use a card "as if"?

3. Can Vlad deactivate his usage of a card?

In other words stop pretending to be Laibon when bounced while using a Kduva's Mask. I would assume that once he uses (activates) a card, that usage will continue until the effect is complete or the current actions ends, if the effect has no defined length.

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03 Apr 2018 19:54 - 03 Apr 2018 19:56 #86141 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic No Secrets from Vlad Tepes

1. Per previous rulings , you cannot use Vlad to play master cards. This is inline with the Kemintiri (Adv) ruling. He is missing the "You and" clause.

Correct.

2. The quoted thread suggests Vlad is able to play Purchase Pact, and based upon that reasoning rules that the Purchase Pact political action is available to Vlad, but the Powerbase: New York steal option is not. We know that ruling is partially incorrect, but there is a clear intention from Pascal to indicate that Vlad can only use cards "as if" that he plays "as if."

Does Vlad need to be able to play a card "as if" to use a card "as if"?

Yes, cardtext: "Vlad can play and use cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect."
So if the card requires a Sabbat vampire, he uses it as a Sabbat vampire.

3. Can Vlad deactivate his usage of a card?

No.

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Last edit: 03 Apr 2018 19:56 by Ankha.

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03 Apr 2018 21:16 - 03 Apr 2018 21:17 #86142 by kschaefer

Does Vlad need to be able to play a card "as if" to use a card "as if"?

Yes, cardtext: "Vlad can play and use cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect."
So if the card requires a Sabbat vampire, he uses it as a Sabbat vampire.


So, in the case of the Purchase Pact, are you saying that Vlad cannot call the political action then? He cannot play the card "as if," therefore he cannot use it "as if."

Furthermore, this implicit dependency is not how English works. The subject is Vlad and the sentence contains two independent predicates. This can be easily tested by removing "play and" and "and use" to see that the sentence is correct without the other predicate. That means that there is no ordering or dependency between the two predicates. You would need some kind of qualifier to gain the implicit dependency that you're looking for. Something like: "Vlad can play cards and use those played cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect."
Last edit: 03 Apr 2018 21:17 by kschaefer. Reason: Fix quoting.

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03 Apr 2018 22:25 - 03 Apr 2018 22:29 #86143 by TwoRazorReign

Furthermore, this implicit dependency is not how English works. The subject is Vlad and the sentence contains two independent predicates. This can be easily tested by removing "play and" and "and use" to see that the sentence is correct without the other predicate. That means that there is no ordering or dependency between the two predicates. You would need some kind of qualifier to gain the implicit dependency that you're looking for. Something like: "Vlad can play cards and use those played cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that title or were of that sect."


What the is an "independent predicate?" I don't understand what you are saying, but I'm intrigued.

There are three clauses in the quoted card text, each with a subject and predicate. The subject in the first clause is "Vlad," and the predicate is "can play and use cards requiring a title or a sect." This first clause is joined to the other two dependent clauses by "as if," which is grammatically acting as a subordinating conjunction. The first dependent clause has the subject "he" and the predicate "had that title." The second dependent clause, which is connected to the first dependent clause with a coordinating conjunction ("or"), has the subject "he," which is omitted because the subject was already stated in the first dependent clause (a common practice in English), and the predicate "were of that sect."

Now that we have the card text grammatically diagrammed, to your point: it seems like you are saying that the card text should clarify that a minion can only use those cards that they played "as if"; a minion cannot use cards they did not play "as if." If this is correct, than you really mean that verbs "play" and "use" in the first clause should not share the same object ("cards"). I think you're saying that each verb should have separate objects for clarity (in bold here): "play cards and use "those cards."

Did I understand you correctly?
Last edit: 03 Apr 2018 22:29 by TwoRazorReign.

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04 Apr 2018 03:58 #86144 by kschaefer
Basically, yes. I won't get into the nerdy linguistics stuff.

Without the qualifier on the object, there's no reason to believe that the set of cards that Vlad can play and the set of cards that Vlad can used need to be the same.

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