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file Anesthetic Touch x Dust Up

04 Nov 2022 23:01 - 05 Nov 2022 02:07 #106710 by thiago_sousa
Anesthetic Touch x Dust Up was created by thiago_sousa
Greetings everyone!

During the last for fun game a couple days ago, the following situation happened:

Player A, controlling Theo Bell (G6), entered combat (he's the acting minion) against Saulot, controlled by player B.
Bell's controller plays Dust Up - using Celerity effect - and Saulot's played Anestethic Touch - at superior OBE.
We all know that there's an ending combat effect attached to the strike resolution. But, since Bell dodged the A.T. strike, and we thought that the end combat effect is part of the strike, only taking place at the strike resolution step, it didn't worked because 'dodge' outrank 'first strike'. So, we proceded this way: bell successffuly dodge, managed to inflict damage sending Saulot to torpor with the add strike.
After that game was over, we dug some rulings:
"A dodge won't prevent combat from ending after strike resolution." - LSJ 20011210-2
and "Does not end combat as a strike; it ends combat after strike resolution. It is still just a hand strike." - LSJ 20011210-1
So, according to those rulings, the combat would have ended even though Bell dodged the A.T. strike.
Is this ruling still in effect? Our thoughts are that the combat end effect is attached to the strike, and if the strike is dodged, that effect also dont happen. Why we're wrong? Isn't it the same principle as Catatonic Fear x Dodge? Is it going to be revised?
Please enlight us. Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Thiago Sousa.

Dust Up, Combat, Animalism/Celerity/Potence, Anarch, C , [AU:C]
Requires an anarch.
[ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. This strike cannot be dodged.
[cel] Strike: dodge, with 1 additional strike (limited).
[pot] Strike: hand strike at +2 damage.

Anesthetic Touch, Combat, Obeah/Auspex, C , [BL:C1, LoB:C]
Only usable at close range.
[aus] Strike: dodge.
[obe] Strike: hand strike. Combat ends immediately after the resolution of this strike.
[OBE] As [obe] above, with first strike.
Last edit: 05 Nov 2022 02:07 by thiago_sousa. Reason: Ortographic correction
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kilrauko

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05 Nov 2022 02:10 #106711 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Anesthetic Touch x Dust Up

Greetings everyone!

During the last for fun game a couple days ago, the following situation happened:

Player A, controlling Theo Bell (G6), entered combat (he's the acting minion) against Saulot, controlled by player B.
Bell's controller plays Dust Up - using Celerity effect - and Saulot's played Anestethic Touch - at superior OBE.
We all know that there's an ending combat effect attached to the strike resolution. But, since Bell dodged the A.T. strike, and we thought that the end combat effect is part of the strike, only taking place at the strike resolution step, it didn't worked because 'dodge' outrank 'first strike'. So, we proceded these way: bell successffuly dodge, managed to inflict damage sending Saulot to torpor with the add strike.
After that game was over, we dig some rulings:
"A dodge won't prevent combat from ending after strike resolution." - LSJ 20011210-2
and "Does not end combat as a strike; it ends combat after strike resolution. It is still just a hand strike." - LSJ 20011210-1
So, according to those rulings, the combat would have ended even though Bell dodged the A.T. strike.
Is this ruling still in effect? Our thoughts are that the combat end effect is attached to the strike, and if the strike is dodged, that effect also dont happen. Why we're wrong? Isn't it the same principle as Catatonic Fear x Dodge? Is it going to be revised?
Please enlight us. Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Thiago Sousa.

Dust Up, Combat, Animalism/Celerity/Potence, Anarch, C , [AU:C]
Requires an anarch.
[ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. This strike cannot be dodged.
[cel] Strike: dodge, with 1 additional strike (limited).
[pot] Strike: hand strike at +2 damage.

Anesthetic Touch, Combat, Obeah/Auspex, C , [BL:C1, LoB:C]
Only usable at close range.
[aus] Strike: dodge.
[obe] Strike: hand strike. Combat ends immediately after the resolution of this strike.
[OBE] As [obe] above, with first strike.



Sorry, I wrote really long and detailled explanation with proper quotes, coded inserts and crash ate it, now you'll need to deal with this wall of text instead;

"Is this ruling still in effect? " Yes.

"Our thoughts are that the combat end effect is attached to the strike, and if the strike is dodged, that effect also dont happen. Why we're wrong? " You most likely mistook the combat ends to be tied to resolution of the hand strike like with basilisk's strike (included below).AT is more like Röts with full stop combat ends full stop that is separated from the strike portion, see also catatonic fear vs AT when opposing minion has Dog pack, see also rulebook relating to how Catatonic Fear and Dodge interact by allowing combat end but preventing the 1 pts of damage from strike.

"Isn't it the same principle as Catatonic Fear x Dodge?" One is Hand strike, one is Strike:Combat ends and .... They are not the same.

"Is it going to be revised? " Why? Are you suggesting a rewrite of the card that already has 3 discipline space troubles or are you suggesting a complete redraw of the design intent behind the card? How else will you word the non S:CE design intent in a clearer fashion?

Insert quotes and code below;
Name: Anesthetic Touch
[BL:C1, LoB:C]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Obeah/Auspex
Only usable at close range.
[aus] Strike: dodge.
[obe] Strike: hand strike. Combat ends immediately after the resolution of this strike.
[OBE] As [obe] above, with first strike.
Artist: Mark Nelson

Name: Basilisk's Touch
[BL:R2, LoB:R]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Mytherceria/Potence
Only usable in combat with an ally or younger vampire. Only usable before range is determined.
[pot] This vampire gets +1 strength for the remainder of combat.
[myt] If any damage is successfully inflicted from this vampire's hand strikes this round, send the opposing vampire to torpor or burn the opposing ally.
[MYT] As [myt] above, and the opposing vampire burns 1 blood if any damage is successfully inflicted.
Artist: Dennis Calero

Name: Rötschreck
[Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG, BH:PTr2, KMW:PB, LoB:PA, Third:PTz]
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.
Artist: Mike Danza

Name: Dog Pack
[AH:R2, Anarchs:PG]
Cardtype: Retainer
Clan: Gangrel
Cost: 2 pool
Animal with 1 life.
Minions opposing the minion with this retainer cannot end combat as a strike.
Artist: Randy Gallegos

Name: Catatonic Fear
[Sabbat:U, SW:U, FN:PS, CE:PTo, LoB:PI2, Third:U]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Presence
[pre] Strike: combat ends.
[PRE] As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close.
Artist: Clint Langley

Strike Effects

Hand Strike: The default strike is a hand strike. When a minion strikes with a hand strike at close range, they do an amount of damage equal to their strength to the opposing minion. Vampires have a default strength of 1.

Dodge: A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion and their possessions from the effects of the opposing strike. Retainers are not protected, however. A dodge is effective at any range. A dodge protects even from the effects of a strike done with first strike (see First Strike). A dodge is a strike, even though it is solely defensive. It represents the activity of the minion during that pair of strikes.

Combat Ends: This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike (see First Strike), and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
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05 Nov 2022 08:31 #106713 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Anesthetic Touch x Dust Up

So, according to those rulings, the combat would have ended even though Bell dodged the A.T. strike.
Is this ruling still in effect? Our thoughts are that the combat end effect is attached to the strike, and if the strike is dodged, that effect also dont happen. Why we're wrong?


By definition, "Dodge: A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion and their possessions from the effects of the opposing strike."

So the dodge protects the minion from the hand strike that would affect him, but does nothing against the "combat ends" part since it's not offensive.

Isn't it the same principle as Catatonic Fear x Dodge?

It's the same: the dodge protects the dodging minion from the damage, but does not cancel the combat ends part.
Prince of Paris, France
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06 Nov 2022 09:15 - 06 Nov 2022 09:15 #106717 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Anesthetic Touch x Dust Up
Did we have a definition somewhere of what "offensive strike" means?
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Last edit: 06 Nov 2022 09:15 by Bloodartist.

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06 Nov 2022 10:45 #106719 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Anesthetic Touch x Dust Up

So the dodge protects the minion from the hand strike that would affect him, but does nothing against the "combat ends" part since it's not offensive.

Did we have a definition somewhere of what "offensive strike" means?


Read: "since it doesn't affect the minion".

A dodge would protect the dodging minion from being unlocked with a inferior Meld with the Land for instance (even if it could be seen as beneficial).

Name: Meld with the Land
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Vicissitude
[vic] Strike: combat ends and unlock the opposing minion (even at long range).
[VIC] Strike: combat ends.
Prince of Paris, France
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09 Nov 2022 21:04 #106779 by thiago_sousa
Replied by thiago_sousa on topic Anesthetic Touch x Dust Up
"Trust in Jan Pieterzoon."
Never trust a Ventrue. lol

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