Vampires contestint titles

I would appreciate an explanation if anyone knows the rationale beyond just that there is a ruling.

inm8 wrote:

interesting ruling, my answer was solely based on the rulebook and I assumed that during the unlock one had to handle whether each vampire would contest the title independently and thereby be allowed to sequence the decision of each vampire, thus leading to that if the first vampire yielded the title it wouldn't count as contested title any longer for the second vampire and thereby they would get the title during next unlock phase and not have to pay any blood..

Why doesn't it work as I thought alt why does it work as per the ruling?

I have to admit I missed the part where the vampires were same controller. Afaik the rule that says you cannot self-contest is invoked - you must yield one of the titles if you would contest with yourself.

I dont see why you would need to yield the another one, since no timing is given to this situation in the rules. Thus things happen in sequence, as they always do in VTES. And you can choose the ordering of the sequence as long as you must adhere to all the triggers before moving between phases. VTES loves sequencing, even pathologically so.

So the cost of contesting must be paid since it is a trigger that happens during unlock. You must adhere to all the triggers before moving between phases. The contest cost sort of exists (is checked at start of unlock) and "lingers" even if you choose to yield the contest.

If I´m not mistaken the rule that one cannot self-contest is only applicable to unique cards but not unique titles

DECK CONSTRUCTION

[...]
You cannot control more than one of the same unique card at a time, and you cannot contest cards with yourself (if some effect would force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the incoming copy of the unique card).

Per the rules the choice of whether to continue to contest (and therefore having to pay the cost) or yield is done during the unlock phase per vampire i.e. there is no cost triggered before that choice has been made.
Being a "during the unlock phase" effect and not an "at the beginning of the unlock phase" effect it is orderable just like other effects (e.g. Fame [LSJ 20010121] ) that happen during this time window.

Based on the above and the rules it would seem logical that a player that has two vampires (A and B) contesting a title during the unlock phase where the first choice regarding the contest is that A yields would mean for B that the title is no longer contested and therefore doesn´t need to even make the choice and by extension, no cost has to be paid for a choice that wasn't needed nor made i.e. the state of the contest is not something that is statically registered at the beginning of the unlock phase and is applied based on that throughout the phase but is a live dynamic state

I really fail to see how the ruling mentioned earlier is supported by the rules.

Contested Titles[

[...]

The cost to contest a title is 1 blood, which is paid by the vampire during each of their unlock phases. Instead of paying the cost to contest the title, the vampire may choose to yield the title (or may be forced to yield, if they have no blood to pay). Only ready vampires can contest titles. Vampires in torpor must yield during the unlock phase.

If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next unlock phase, ending the contest.

The above would be exactly my thinking.
Contesting titles with yourself was never mentioned as not following
"the-golden-rule-of-sequencing-during-untap" AFAIK.
Really curious about the reasoning for the ruling.

lip wrote:

two vampires contesting a title while having the same controller.

See [LSJ 20050331]

Ankha does this ruling stand? If yes, could you please explain why/how it technically works as it would mean my understanding is wrong (as described in my previous post).