file Burn Option wording in Rulebook v1.1

10 Jun 2024 06:41 #111649 by Ankha
Short answer for those questions is:
if there is a requirement, you cannot use the burn option if you control a ready vampire meeting that requirement. The other condition for using burn option only applies to card without a proper requirement.

1) RIDDLE PHANTASTIQUE: [action]: Ⓓ Put this card on an ally or younger vampire who is not Malkavian or Malkavian antitribu. Put X riddle counters on this card, where X is half the capacity of the acting vampire (round down). The minion with this card burns 1 riddle counter instead of unlocking during his or her unlock phase. Burn this card when it has no counters. You may not play this card if another Riddle Phantastique is in play.

Can I burn option Riddle if there are no younger non-Malk, non-!Malk or ally targets even though I control a Kiasyd? In the past, the answer was no. Now, it appears to be yes.

Provided cardtext is lacking the Kiasyd requirement.
Answer is: no, you cannot use the burn option since you control a ready Kiasyd.

2) DEEP COVER AGENT: [action]: +1 stealth action. Requires a ready Seraph. Unique.
Ⓓ Put this card on a younger ready vampire. You still control this card. During your unlock phase, you may look at this vampire's controller's hand. This vampire can burn this card as a Ⓓ action.

Can I burn option DCA if there are no vampires younger than my ready Seraphs? Again, the pre-V1.1 answer would be no, with V1.1 it would seem to be yes.

No if you control a ready Seraph.

3) HIGH ORUN: [action modifier] Requires a Laibon with three or more Orun. For the remainder of this action, cards that require any Disciplines cost this Laibon 1 less blood, and your hand size is one card larger.

There is an existing ruling if the minion meeting the requirements of a burn option card is in torpor, the burn option on a subset of cards can be used (actions, combat cards and reactions). In effect, the ruling states an implicit "ready minion" requirement exists on these cards. It does not apply to action modifiers, which are playable in torpor

(groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/JBdmMh1udN8/m/1bdYBRBxCAEJ)

I have a vampire with 3 Orun in torpor. High Orun is both a reaction (burnable) and an action modifier (not burnable) - can the card be burned if the only vampire can can play it is in torpor by referencing "the part of it that is unplayable?" It appears not, since LSJ's ruling referenced above specifically mentions High Orun.

I just wanted to make sure nothing has changed.

The "vampire with 3 Orun in torpor" meets the requirement for at least one effect so it can't be discarded.

4) TRACKER'S MARK: [combat] Play when the opposing minion burns blood or life due to damage. Put this card on the opposing minion. This Salubri antitribu gets +1 intercept when attempting to block the minion with this card. If the vampire with this card is Tremere or Baali, this Salubri antitribu can enter combat with him or her as a Ⓓ action. The minion with this card may burn it as a +1 stealth action. A vampire can play only one Tracker's Mark each combat.

Can I burn this in any unlock phase, because "opposing minion" is not a valid target during the unlock phase? Previously, no. Now....maybe?

The cardtext is lacking the !Salubri requirement.
Answer: no, if you control a ready !Salubri

5) CONSUME THE DEAD: [action] +1 stealth action. Ⓓ Enter combat with a wraith ally or burn a wraith retainer. [reaction] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a locked Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood, where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer.

Can I burn option CtD if other players control no wraith allies or retainers? Previously no, now unsure.

Or does the [reaction] text prevent burning the card? Or does the presence of no currently burning target to remove during the unlock phase get around preventing a burn option?

The cardtext is lacking the Nagaraja requirement.
Answer: no, if you control a ready Nagaraja.

GENERAL POINT: Finally, I wanted to ask if this "target" thing has been added to the Rulebook version 1.1 to make this specific card actually burnable?

TRANSCENDENT LIABON: Unique master. Put this card on a Laibon with at least three Aye and three Orun. During your unlock phase, this Laibon gains 1 blood. Allies and younger vampires must burn 1 blood or life to attempt to block this Laibon or to perform an action directed at this Laibon. Burn this card if this minion is not ready or has fewer than three Aye or three Orun.

If that's the driver for the change (I can't find many other possibilities) - it feels like the cart driving the horse. How about just changing that one card to read "Requires a Liabon with at least 3 Aye and 3 Orun" and then leaving the target part out of the rules?

It would be a change since you wouldn't be able to play the card on someone else. Probably not a big deal of a change, I thought there were some other cards concerned, but I can't find them.

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10 Jun 2024 09:05 #111650 by inm8


This icon means that a Methuselah who does not control a minion
...a) who meets the requirements of this card
...or
...b) who is a legal target for it
may discard it

*** a) and b) don't both need to be true to allow the discard

in the above scenario given for Tattoo Signal b) is true which makes the burn option discard allowed

Your logic is wrong, see above.

Do you control a or b? Answer is "yes"
Negation of that => "no"

I´m sorry but I think that the one that is wrong is you as the current wording provides two alternatives and if split up would read as:

Option a:

This icon means that a Methuselah who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card may discard it...


Option b:

This icon means that a Methuselah who does not control a minion who is a legal target for it may discard it...


Maybe it could be rephrased for more clarity:

"Some cards have a burn option icon.
These cards can be discarded during ANY Methuselah’s unlock phase if one of the following conditions is met:
  • the card has a requirement and the Methuselah does not control a minion who meets that requirement
  • the card does not have a requirement, and there is no legal target for that card.

Each Methuselah is limited to one such discard each unlock phase."


This is not just a rewording but a change to the rule which if it is the intended way it should work makes more sense with regard to the answer to the the given scenario...but it isn´t what is currently in the rulebook....the above is not equal to what is currently in the rules.

This kind of change should imo be announced and not be sneaked in with what is referred to as "re-formatting" of the rulebook.

No rules have been changed in this 1.1 version, but things have been adjusted, so hopefully the already clarified rules will be even clearer now.

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