Burn Option wording in Rulebook v1.1
From the rulebook:
ADVANCED RULES
Some cards have a burn option icon.
This icon means that a Methuselah who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card or who is a legal target for it, may discard it during ANY Methuselah’s unlock phase and and replace it. Each Methuselah is limited to one such discard each unlock phase.Tattoo Signal
Cardtype: Action
Burn Option
+1 stealth action. Requires a Seraph.
Put this card on this acting Seraph. This ready Seraph may lock this card to unlock another Black Hand vampire. A minion may have only one Tattoo Signal.
Given that a Seraph can only have one Tattoo Signal, can I burn option a Tattoo Signal if all my Seraphs have one?
My reading of the rulebook's new text suggest, yes, because I do not have a minion "who is a legal target for it."
No, because you control a minion who meets the requirement.
"control a minion who meets the requirement or who is a legal target for it" is true, so the negation of it ("who doe not control...") if false.
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From the rulebook:
ADVANCED RULES
Some cards have a burn option icon.
This icon means that a Methuselah who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card or who is a legal target for it, may discard it during ANY Methuselah’s unlock phase and and replace it. Each Methuselah is limited to one such discard each unlock phase.Tattoo Signal
Cardtype: Action
Burn Option
+1 stealth action. Requires a Seraph.
Put this card on this acting Seraph. This ready Seraph may lock this card to unlock another Black Hand vampire. A minion may have only one Tattoo Signal.
Given that a Seraph can only have one Tattoo Signal, can I burn option a Tattoo Signal if all my Seraphs have one?
My reading of the rulebook's new text suggest, yes, because I do not have a minion "who is a legal target for it."
No, because you control a minion who meets the requirement.
"control a minion who meets the requirement or who is a legal target for it" is true, so the negation of it ("who doe not control...") if false.
Is it just me who has had brain aneyrysm right now and everyone else sees the normal version but isn't that rulebook quote in question misprinted. As in it makes more sense when you remove the repetition;
This icon means that a Methuselah who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card or who is a legal target for it, may discard it during ANY Methuselah’s unlock phase and and replace it.
...
... who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card
who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card...
How did that get past the proofread as it's even in the 1.1 pdf... blackchantry.com/Vampire%20The%20Eternal%20Struggle%20Fifth%20Edition%20rulebook%20ENG.pdf
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
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Yes, since LSJ issued the ruling boardgamegeek.com/thread/662413/article/6920306I would like to daisy-chain some other questions regarding specific cards into the thread for some simple "yes/no" answers. These burn option uses may represent function changes. They probably escalate in absurdity as the list progresses.
1) RIDDLE PHANTASTIQUE: [action]: Ⓓ Put this card on an ally or younger vampire who is not Malkavian or Malkavian antitribu. Put X riddle counters on this card, where X is half the capacity of the acting vampire (round down). The minion with this card burns 1 riddle counter instead of unlocking during his or her unlock phase. Burn this card when it has no counters. You may not play this card if another Riddle Phantastique is in play.
Can I burn option Riddle if there are no younger non-Malk, non-!Malk or ally targets even though I control a Kiasyd? In the past, the answer was no. Now, it appears to be yes.
Yes, since LSJ issued the ruling boardgamegeek.com/thread/662413/article/69203062) DEEP COVER AGENT: [action]: +1 stealth action. Requires a ready Seraph. Unique.
Ⓓ Put this card on a younger ready vampire. You still control this card. During your unlock phase, you may look at this vampire's controller's hand. This vampire can burn this card as a Ⓓ action.
Can I burn option DCA if there are no vampires younger than my ready Seraphs? Again, the pre-V1.1 answer would be no, with V1.1 it would seem to be yes.
No, the ability to meet the requirements of a card (which includes having valid targets **1) in hand is for the entirety of the card and not only for a subset of it **2.3) HIGH ORUN: [action modifier] Requires a Laibon with three or more Orun. For the remainder of this action, cards that require any Disciplines cost this Laibon 1 less blood, and your hand size is one card larger.
There is an existing ruling if the minion meeting the requirements of a burn option card is in torpor, the burn option on a subset of cards can be used (actions, combat cards and reactions). In effect, the ruling states an implicit "ready minion" requirement exists on these cards. It does not apply to action modifiers, which are playable in torpor
(groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/JBdmMh1udN8/m/1bdYBRBxCAEJ)
I have a vampire with 3 Orun in torpor. High Orun is both a reaction (burnable) and an action modifier (not burnable) - can the card be burned if the only vampire can can play it is in torpor by referencing "the part of it that is unplayable?" It appears not, since LSJ's ruling referenced above specifically mentions High Orun.
I just wanted to make sure nothing has changed.
**1 boardgamegeek.com/thread/662413/article/6920306
**2 groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/JBdmMh1udN8/m/1bdYBRBxCAEJ
Yes, since LSJ issued the ruling boardgamegeek.com/thread/662413/article/69203064) TRACKER'S MARK: [combat] Play when the opposing minion burns blood or life due to damage. Put this card on the opposing minion. This Salubri antitribu gets +1 intercept when attempting to block the minion with this card. If the vampire with this card is Tremere or Baali, this Salubri antitribu can enter combat with him or her as a Ⓓ action. The minion with this card may burn it as a +1 stealth action. A vampire can play only one Tracker's Mark each combat.
Can I burn this in any unlock phase, because "opposing minion" is not a valid target during the unlock phase? Previously, no. Now....maybe?
Maybe it is a way to make the card more viable in a deck as it is very situational.
Yes (the latter for the last portion similar to 4), since LSJ issued the ruling boardgamegeek.com/thread/662413/article/69203065) CONSUME THE DEAD: [action] +1 stealth action. Ⓓ Enter combat with a wraith ally or burn a wraith retainer. [reaction] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a locked Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood, where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer.
Can I burn option CtD if other players control no wraith allies or retainers? Previously no, now unsure.
Or does the [reaction] text prevent burning the card? Or does the presence of no currently burning target to remove during the unlock phase get around preventing a burn option?
Maybe it is a way to make the card more viable in a deck as it is very situational.
can only assume based on the ruling boardgamegeek.com/thread/662413/article/6920306GENERAL POINT: Finally, I wanted to ask if this "target" thing has been added to the Rulebook version 1.1 to make this specific card actually burnable?
TRANSCENDENT LIABON: Unique master. Put this card on a Laibon with at least three Aye and three Orun. During your unlock phase, this Laibon gains 1 blood. Allies and younger vampires must burn 1 blood or life to attempt to block this Laibon or to perform an action directed at this Laibon. Burn this card if this minion is not ready or has fewer than three Aye or three Orun.
If that's the driver for the change (I can't find many other possibilities) - it feels like the cart driving the horse. How about just changing that one card to read "Requires a Liabon with at least 3 Aye and 3 Orun" and then leaving the target part out of the rules?
where LSJ also wrote the below was referring to the fact that valid targets for the cards with burn option is also a relevant requirement that is to be evaluated and not only disciplines, clan and "Requires X" text.
The rulebook text could benefit from some tightening
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From the rulebook:
ADVANCED RULES
Some cards have a burn option icon.
This icon means that a Methuselah who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card or who is a legal target for it, may discard it during ANY Methuselah’s unlock phase and and replace it. Each Methuselah is limited to one such discard each unlock phase.Tattoo Signal
Cardtype: Action
Burn Option
+1 stealth action. Requires a Seraph.
Put this card on this acting Seraph. This ready Seraph may lock this card to unlock another Black Hand vampire. A minion may have only one Tattoo Signal.
Given that a Seraph can only have one Tattoo Signal, can I burn option a Tattoo Signal if all my Seraphs have one?
My reading of the rulebook's new text suggest, yes, because I do not have a minion "who is a legal target for it."
No, because you control a minion who meets the requirement.
"control a minion who meets the requirement or who is a legal target for it" is true, so the negation of it ("who doe not control...") if false.
This icon means that a Methuselah who does not control a minion
...a) who meets the requirements of this card
...or
...b) who is a legal target for it
may discard it
*** a) and b) don't both need to be true to allow the discard
in the above scenario given for Tattoo Signal b) is true which makes the burn option discard allowed
This icon means that a Methuselah who does not control a minion who meets the requirements of this card or who is a legal target for it, may discard it during ANY Methuselah’s unlock phase and replace it.
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Your logic is wrong, see above.
This icon means that a Methuselah who does not control a minion
...a) who meets the requirements of this card
...or
...b) who is a legal target for it
may discard it
*** a) and b) don't both need to be true to allow the discard
in the above scenario given for Tattoo Signal b) is true which makes the burn option discard allowed
Do you control a or b? Answer is "yes"
Negation of that => "no"
Maybe it could be rephrased for more clarity:
"Some cards have a burn option icon.
These cards can be discarded during ANY Methuselah’s unlock phase if one of the following conditions is met:
- the card has a requirement and the Methuselah does not control a minion who meets that requirement
- the card does not have a requirement, and there is no legal target for that card.
Each Methuselah is limited to one such discard each unlock phase."
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- Burn Option wording in Rulebook v1.1