Reversal of Fortunes

echiang wrote:

First off, the deck relies on Madness Network. It can easily be Suddened, or burned as a simple action. If this is a RoF vote deck, it's probably going to have trouble defending the Madness Network (or surviving combat if they do block).

Secondly, it relies on passing Reversal of Fortunes. Weenie Malks aren't really known for having lots of votes. So if anyone else is playing political decks, they can discard vote cards. An early titled vampire could easily shut down hopes of passing RoF as well.

You didn't see it run.
It has two minions on turn two, one of them being a Malkavian.
Which means Madness Network is in play, by then.
One of the minion bleeds (if necessary - that'sa guess the player has to do), the other plays Praxis Seizure / Malkavian Justicar.
A new Malk enters the game. On prey's turn (remember this is turn 2/3), plays reversal of Fortunes.
Pentexes the guy who just came up.

That's the regular start.
Then, it just plays with Reversals and Smiling Jack.

It is a trick deck. While extremely annoying, that doesn't mean it's imbalanced or broken.

Jeff wrote:

It is a trick deck. While extremely annoying, that doesn't mean it's imbalanced or broken.

While it is certainly a knife edge kind of strategy that isn't that difficult to derail from the get go--someone plays SR on the Madness Network, someone DT/DIs the Reversal of Fortune, the deck doesn't shuffle well, etc., when it *does* go off, it is kind of a nightmare as two or three players at the table never do *anything*. As noted, you can get out a weenie Malk on the first turn, on the second turn, play Madnenss Network, make the weenie Malk the Justicar, get out a second guy, and then on your prey's turn, call Reversal of Fortune, and go from there. What this results in is the two people across the table taking 1 turn before getting locked out of the game, and your predator or prey getting locked out of the game (depending on who you feel like hosing).

I don't know that I'd call this particular strategy wildly overpowered or anything, as it is difficult to set up and easy to derail. But it certainly is disruptive to a reasonable game.

Even the Una Deck(TM), coming out on turn 3 and going off (presumably) on turn 4, isn't super-fast. If anyone can show me a Reversal of Fortunes deck that is a turn 2 (3?) kill, I'd like to see it. I doubt it can even reliably oust a prey on turn 5.

I think the point is to get the combo set up, then do the Smiling Jack dance for a bit, then once it's big enough, whack your prey with it a few times as it builds. If you've locked down their uncontrolled vampires with Brainwash, then they can't even act to remove it. Once you have a new prey, Brainwash them as well. Since they've never had any turns to speak of, they shouldn't have minions to burn Jack either.

I'm going to have to try this abuse out for myself!

KevinM wrote:

I doubt it can even reliably oust a prey on turn 5.

The issue isn't really the speed of ousting. It is kind of more the slowness of ousting--a buddy of mine (Steve) was playing this kind of deck relatively recently, and he'd bring it out, warn us, and we'd give it a go. One game I was across the table from this deck (I think I was the Reversal of Fortune's grand prey?). We started the game. Steve got it going on, like, turn 2 or turn 3. My prey and I (i.e. the two guys at the table not next to the Reversal of Fortune deck) got up and left the room. We'd check in once and a while. After an hour had passed (literally. An hour.), it still hadn't moved to my next turn. And no one was playing excessively slowly. It just never got to be my 3rd (or 4th or whatever it was) turn. Eventually, something went wrong, the Reversal deck lost its lock, and I accidentally won the game 'cause the Smiling Jack went around the table, demolished folks, the Reversal deck got killed, and then I kind of wandered into victory. Which was very silly.

In any case, the issue is that the deck makes it so some people at the table literally don't take turns. For an extended period of time. While other folks are. Again, I'm not saying this is wildly overpowered or anything (I think the similar yet much more effective Una deck is, well, much more effective). But when this kind of deck goes off, it is time for a couple people at the table to go and get lunch.