What should be done with Reversal of Fortune?

Izaak wrote:

There is literally HUNDREDS of them. How is that "not numerous"?

For numerous years, magic was far, far worse (in proportion, because Magic may have something like 10 to 100 more cards), to the point they actually have reversed most of them, so that people can actually play the card without having to reads thousands of pages of erratas..

Kushiel wrote:

The VEKN disagrees. See: Villein.

The VEKN have talked about half a dozen cards to ban or errata. One have been errated. So, as you see, the VEKN don't like to ban or errate card.

In both case, would you support an errata for Tortured Confession that remove the blood cost ? It's more or less the same reasoning : bothering to errata or ban the card can be thought as not worth the effort.

It's just that changing Reversal is a bit more meaningful (and controversial) than Tortured Confession or Twisting the Knife. But in both case the "no need to act for something so small" is a valid argument that you may or may not adhere to.

Ohlmann wrote:

The VEKN have talked about half a dozen cards to ban or errata. One have been errated. So, as you see, the VEKN don't like to ban or errate card.

Completely irrelevant. You said that it's bad if players need to be familiar with this site in order to play in official VEKN tournaments. That's already the case, because there's never been a print of Villein that has the proper card text. Since players already need to be familiar with this site in order to play in a tournament (at least according to your standards of personally needing to know all current rules, banned cards and cardtexts) that argument against banning RoF is a total non-starter. It's just objectively wrong. *shrug*

Ohlmann wrote:

In both case, would you support an errata for Tortured Confession that remove the blood cost ? It's more or less the same reasoning : bothering to errata or ban the card can be thought as not worth the effort.

I've never heard of the play of a Tortured Confession that disrupted a VTES table, let alone prevented two or three players from being able to do anything for an hour. Your analogy is poor.

For numerous years, magic was far, far worse (in proportion, because Magic may have something like 10 to 100 more cards), to the point they actually have reversed most of them, so that people can actually play the card without having to reads thousands of pages of erratas..

So because another game has even MORE errata, the HUNDREDS we have for VTES are not numerous suddenly?

FYI, while Magic may a larger number of actual errata, the number that are relevant at any given (somewhat meaningful) tournament is much smaller.

In both case, would you support an errata for Tortured Confession that remove the blood cost ? It's more or less the same reasoning : bothering to errata or ban the card can be thought as not worth the effort.

No it's not. When tortured confession gets played people just go "wut, really... lol?". When Reversal of Fortunes gets played, it breaks the game.

Now just waiting for lame argument: "If Reversal of Fortune is banned next is gonna be Una, Tupdogs, Deflection etc. and banning will never end." Anyway only good arguments not to ban Reversal of Fortune I see are.
1. Somebody thinks Reversal of Fortune decks are actually cool and good for game.
2. Reversal of Fortune still is very minor problem and banning would cause argues + ban list would go larger. I feel especially Vtes players can be a bit stubborn and old school so banning minor thing might not be best option even if game would improve by tiny amount.

Overall this looks to me like the original poster wants it banned simply because his 'invincible deck of doom' got ousted by reversal of fortunes deck once, and thus it must obviously be broken! From what I can see of the ban list, only ONE card has ever been banned because of reasons other than it being too good (not counting the ante cards), and that is Madness of the Bard, which was banned simply because it was too much a pain in the ass to monitor if everyone was talking in rhymes all the time.

Klaital wrote:

Overall this looks to me like the original poster wants it banned simply because his 'invincible deck of doom' got ousted by reversal of fortunes deck once, and thus it must obviously be broken!

I just re-read the OP, and can't see how you came to that conclusion. From Ankha's post:

"The big problem (IMHO) is Madness / Reversal* decks. It's a very technical deck to build and play but that disrupts the whole game to its very core.
"Either it works and 3 players sit down doing nothing while the deck wins;
"Either it works but the player has no choice to propose some king making to his prey because otherwise the Madness/Reversal would lose;
"Or it doesn't work and it's a free VP for his predator as the whole table teams up against it.

"Playing alone with no interaction from the other players is not the spirit of VTES."

His complaint is that the card is unduly disruptive to what he sees as the spirit of the game. If you want to argue against that, go nuts, but nowhere does he mention ever getting ousted by the deck, or even that he thinks it's good. If you haven't read the rest of the thread, nobody is arguing that it might warrant errata or banning because it's too good, even the people who want it errata'd or banned.

Klaital wrote:

From what I can see of the ban list, only ONE card has ever been banned because of reasons other than it being too good (not counting the ante cards), and that is Madness of the Bard, which was banned simply because it was too much a pain in the ass to monitor if everyone was talking in rhymes all the time.

The seat-switchers weren't banned for being too good, but because they destroyed the predator/prey relationship that's so central to the game. It's pretty easy to see how RoF can be considered a parallel to those cards, given that it destroys the mechanic whereby players take turns one after another.