About deals and withdrawing

it's only illegal if you can't find an excuse for it!!!!

Ankha wrote:

Suppose D and E have a deal where D spends his resources resisting to B while E ousts B.
Once in duel, D and E's deal is void. But D still has no reasonable change of ousting E (perhaps even less since E got 6 pool).
E has 2 vp. By withdrawing or letting D withdraw, or reaching the time limit, E has the GW.[/b]

What kind of deal is that? D would do that anyway, right?

Option 1
E can torporize/paralyze all of D's minion
That case is simple. Once D has no minion left, he can't stop E from withdrawing. E scores GW 2.5, D scores 1 VP

E would score 4 VP if just ousted D, so why do anything else?

Option 2
D is at 1 pool, E can oust D anytime (E plays stealth, D has no intercept).
This case is tricky because it's based on what E could do. But if D has 99.9% chances of being ousted if he takes any offensive action against E, D maximizes his victory points by withdrawing, or letting E withdraw.

E would score 4 VP if just ousted D, so why do anything else?

Option 3
D has no reasonable chances of ousting E, but those chances are much greater if E empties his library in order to attempt to withdraw
In that case, E will ask D to withdraw (otherwise, E will just oust D). D gets 0.5 VP which is better than 0.

E would score 4 VP if just ousted D, so why do anything else?

Option 4
There's not enough time left for D to oust E.
If E attempts to withdraw and succeeds, D will get 1 VP instead of 0.5 for time limit. D can let E withdraw.

You haven't said why E is withdrawing, but O.K.

Duels can and should be prepared while there's still a third player on the table and while the deals are still legal.

I am sensing the gist of this to justify, D kingmaking E over B.

KevinM wrote:

Pendargon wrote:

Always remember who dealbroke, and make them pay, that way less people will dealbreak you.

NIT: This is illegal if done in any game other than the one in which the deal was broken.

No it ain't.

Lying douchebag A : " Why you are rushing me crosstable with your first action"
Me : (silence) " anything before range?"
Lying douchebag A : " Juuuudge!!! whinewhinewhien"
Judde (takes me away, asks in confidence) : "Why are you rushing him crosstable with your first action?"
Me : "I strongly and utmostly and unshakeably believe that i will most easily achieve my game win if he dies first on this table."
Judge : " Ok, carry on."

Fact is: there are not many ways to make it work differently. Kingmaking is part of any interactive multiplayer game. You can make it less relevant by removing second place, but then you cannot run tournaments. After 3 rounds, there is a high probability that several players have the number of GWs, so a tie breaker is needed. Heck, even with the current GW+VP+TP system, it still comes down to a coin toss sometimes. So VPs are needed in the formula and as long as you have VPs, you will have kingmaking and table splitting deals.

Here are two possible options:

1) Get rid of withdrawing altogether. It adds nothing to the game and is never used except in table splitting deals. There is a reason it was downgraded to 0.5VPs in the tournament rules.
2) Change the PTW rules to force a player to maximise his VPs even if he has the GW, so that the duel must always be played out. That would actually fit the tournament definition of winning better since VPs are a part of tournament scoring. 1GW5 is better than 1GW3, that should reflect in the PTW definition. Table splitting deals would still be possible, but everyone in the deal would have to earn their own VPs by ousting non-cooperative preys.

Thank you for all the suggestions.

and yes, i am inclined to see the withdraw as part of the loophole. I like the original mechanism but in practice, in tournament play it is almost impossible to withdraw except if your predator willingly lets you go.

In tournaments I have only withdrawn succesfully once. I was playing Assamites, loss + something and my Harbringer predator was slaughterhousing my deck as fast as he could.

story short: my deck was exhausted by turn 8, but I had managed to store 4 Nest of Eagles in my hand. Declare withdrawal, do nothing and reduce my predators 3 bleed actions to 0.