Una Freak Drive

Sorry about all the edits, I'm really bad at quoting.

Ashur wrote:

No you don´t. Nothing in the rest of your comments tells me you understand. I have no idea why you say you understand perfectly, when you don´t understand at all!

I'm trying kinda hard to be polite here, but do try not to make assumptions on my intelligence. I understand that you, personally, dislike the deck (as stated by yourself) and find it annoying. I may not agree, since both of these are subjective ideas, but I understand the problem you put forth and tried to show you other boring and/or annoying situations.
Please refrain from referring to my understanding (or person, really) unless needed to debunk fallacies or argument subversion. If it helps, I'll attempt to ignore questions in the line of "do you understand?".

Ashur wrote:

Smart players play some combat defense in almost every deck, and if you get into trouble other players can help you, for example by rescuing your vamps from torpor.

Not all decks play combat defense and in the case of being impossible/unwilling to rescue, you're stuck for a possibly long time, waiting to die.
One intercept is necessary to stop Una. One Pentex. One DI. Not all of these at the same time, but one of them. You can argue that you might not be able to draw those cards, but then again, you might not be able to draw combat defense and Una has two players that can block it.

Ashur wrote:

Minions and players interact, cards are played, deals are made, it´s exciting and everyone is having a good time.

Again, subjective. Watching people argue over voting may be boring for some, exciting for others. Also fearing being beaten to a pulp might be exciting for some, boring for others.

Ashur wrote:

What is this “weenie computer hacking”?

Extrala has a post about this archetype. At the end of the post, there's the list a player in my group modeled the deck after ( The Friendmaker ).

Ashur wrote:

Never seen one in a final either.

How does this matter? Aren't we talking about annoyance? I've never seen Una in a final either (doesn't mean it never won anything).

Ashur wrote:

I´m offended when who tell me to play some childrens game.

While it is your prerogative to be offended, I did not mean it as such. I play Pokémon, along with Magic, VtES and L5R – the first three, competitively. Pokémon is a simpler game than VtES, for sure, but not a bad one. It has good mechanics and clear rules (something VtES could benefit from).

Ashur wrote:

“It´s a game where, if you are unlucky, one player plays and the others look at him/her playing”.

Good thing you don't say it, as it isn't so. The game isn't like that, as there is no superabundance of Una-like decks, and the deck itself isn't like that. We have already established, in previous posts, that only a fraction of the time is spent in Una's turn and then no more.

Ashur wrote:

I have no idea why someone things Una (and it´s likes) is fun, or “needed” in Vtes in some way.

Because (and to answer the same question you asked to elotar), it brings variety to the game and by no means defines it as a combo-centric game, as you seem to fear it will. A richer game (within its own parameters) is better, IMO. A less rich game appeals to a smaller crowd and VtES really can't afford to not have new players, if it is to survive. Some players also like to be creative with the deck they make, finding interesting interactions and putting them to practice.
BTW, there's more than one way to nerf – releasing cards that counter/make the job harder for other cards/decks/synergies is a way that does not mess with the original cards themselves, but I digress.

Sérgio wrote:

Not all decks play combat defense and in the case of being impossible/unwilling to rescue, you're stuck for a possibly long time, waiting to die.
One intercept is necessary to stop Una. One Pentex. One DI. Not all of these at the same time, but one of them. You can argue that you might not be able to draw those cards, but then again, you might not be able to draw combat defense and Una has two players that can block it.

And you need that One Pentex or One DI at exactly the right time (basically the top 10 cards of your library).

If you have a 90 card deck, draw 7 cards and discard/play 3 cards before your Master Phase after which Una could start acting:
- there is an 11% chance of drawing the 'silver bullet' card if there is 1 in the deck.
- 21% if you have 2 copies.

This is why people don't like playing against the Una Deck and others similar, because you might as well roll a d10 to see if you can stop the Una Deck setting itself up.

@Juggernaut1981
I'm not able to properly quote (cellphone), but your last post suggests that una is unstopabble after setup. That doesn't seem quite right. Pentex after setup is equaly good – maybe even better, as una is quite lower in pool.

You also seem to suggest that the game does not allow players go deal with una. If you add combat protection because you expect it, why not add turbo protection if it is common in your area? Metagame is a thing.

Regarding the % chance of getting the needed cards, you don't need to have 90 card decks.

Exactly, the Una deck is so vulnerable that it requires so many actions to make it function. That an untimely block can be catastrophic for it.
If u guys are looking more ways to kill an Una deck aside from the 3 mentioned, there are so many (Vampiric disease, temptation decks, and Sensory deprivation)
Which goes to annoying decks which allot very litte interaction between vamps eg. Sensory deprivation decks, brainwash grp1 malk bleed, hell brainwash alone

Sérgio wrote:

@Juggernaut1981
I'm not able to properly quote (cellphone), but your last post suggests that una is unstopabble after setup. That doesn't seem quite right. Pentex after setup is equaly good – maybe even better, as una is quite lower in pool.

Not unstoppable, just reduced all of the risk to:
- maybe a pentex
- maybe losing permanent cards to Canine Hordes, etc
- not much else

The structure of the Una deck is to highly concentrate its risks into effectively a single minion phase and remove them from almost all other parts of its game.

You also seem to suggest that the game does not allow players go deal with una. If you add combat protection because you expect it, why not add turbo protection if it is common in your area? Metagame is a thing.

I am not saying the game does not allow for ways to deal with the Una deck. This isn't a thread about just 'Can Una be beaten?' but other things such as 'Is Una fun to have as an opponent?'

JamesatZephyr wrote:

1) Do you think that the Una Freak Drive deck is a problem for the game? Not necessarily in terms of raw power, but also in terms of how much time one player can spend on their turn, and whether this has an impact on how much fun other players might have. (You are quite welcome to say "No"!)

Is Una a problem for the game? Not really on her own, but she leads to solitaire play decks.
Is Una a boring deck as an opponent because of the time taken? Yes, and also no. The turns get crushed into the front turn, but that front turn means that Una is entirely setup and either vulnerable or invulnerable at that point. This is the concentration of risk point I keep making.
Is Una an 'un-fun' deck to play against?
If the Una Deck is a wall-ish variation (intercept retainers and equipment with weapons), then a predator will know if they can get actions past Una's ability to block. Since it is permacept with the Una Deck, Una suffers no risk so there is no point taking card-draw risks as its predator if you know you can't generate more stealth than the permanent intercept. With traditional wall decks, they take time to set up and reach that permanent blocking wall capability (classic Raven Spy Gangrel or Tzimisce sorts of decks for example). Una in a single turn has reached that point. So your ability to get around Una is known to yourself and potentially the Una player from the point the Una player ends their turn. It comes down to wakes at that point.
If the Una Deck is a more combat-rush variation then after that first setup turn, you will know if you are able to deal with Una's combat module. It is there on the table. Una has no risk in card draw in the combat module. You however, as a card-driven combat module are still acting under risk. Also, if you cannot answer the defences of the Una Deck then it is immune to your retaliations.
If the Una Deck is more a bruise-bleed variation then it functions like the combat rush, just with better tendencies to kill prey's and collect more VPs.

Other turbo decks can fit into similar types. The biggest exceptions seem to be the Journal Decks. Journal Decks just go out of their way to bloat themselves beyond a 'sensible number' (i.e. 60+ pool) and then win by attrition.


If you are relying on a 'silver bullet' to beat a deck, then you are relying on card draw chances and deckbuilding choices. Both of these are not in-game decisions, they are not placing the player in a position of making meaningful choices and dis-empower the player. Most players do not play games where the player is dis-empowered. Most people label those games as not fun.