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[Fairyworld] Examining combat cards and strategies and how they should work
24 Jul 2018 13:46 #89273
by elotar
When you are playing in the environment, where this rules are followed. When you are out of it then the game became unbearable for many. And when crostable bleed is bearable, crosstable combat is a cancer.
All rules should be written.
NC Russia
Replied by elotar on topic [Fairyworld] Examining combat cards and strategies and how they should work
These unwritten rules contribute to the social part of VTES that a lot of people find charming.
When you are playing in the environment, where this rules are followed. When you are out of it then the game became unbearable for many. And when crostable bleed is bearable, crosstable combat is a cancer.
All rules should be written.
NC Russia
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24 Jul 2018 15:09 - 24 Jul 2018 15:15 #89276
by Mewcat
The notion that combat prevents people from playing the decks they like in some disparate manner is patently false. It is more punishing to be bled for 6 than to have a 6 cap put into torpor. Rescues and hunts are built into the game with the former capable by another player. Pool is the meta resource.
The crazy fact comes from the actual decks people play. Look on the home page of this site. Combat is like the imbued, shows up once in a while and is annoying.
Replied by Mewcat on topic [Fairyworld] Examining combat cards and strategies and how they should work
Arguably, it's preventing people from playing greedy decks with no combat cards whatsoever. It's important aspect of the game, and if someone choose to not play any combat at all, he should suffer horrible death.
So you goal is to prevent people to play the decks they like, your means to reach it is to make them suffer until they submit.
Can't share any of it.
Combat is effectively not a part of the game competitively.
From which competitions do you getting this crazy ideas?
There was some time ago metagame statistics from one of the EC, combat was present in absolute majority of the decks.
Modedit\\ Please keep consecutive quotes within a single post. No double-posting.
The notion that combat prevents people from playing the decks they like in some disparate manner is patently false. It is more punishing to be bled for 6 than to have a 6 cap put into torpor. Rescues and hunts are built into the game with the former capable by another player. Pool is the meta resource.
The crazy fact comes from the actual decks people play. Look on the home page of this site. Combat is like the imbued, shows up once in a while and is annoying.
Last edit: 24 Jul 2018 15:15 by Mewcat.
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24 Jul 2018 17:18 #89277
by skimflux
That just goes back to the efficiency point - an 80% to 90% stealth deck would have the same issue, yet I doubt anyone would say that stealth is innefficient - about 45% of all winning decks use stealth cards.
The difference (IMO) is that often 1-2 stealth cards are enough to make an action successful, yet with combat you will need 3-4 cards for a 'successful' combat, and then you still need a second minion to get your action through.
So a stealth module can be made with as little as 4-8 cards (average in the TWDA is 11), but few decks will be able to use combat aggressively with less than 12 cards.
The TWDA disproves that: over 90% of the TWDA decks have combat cards, with an average count of 17 cards/deck, just below 20% - about on par with all action modifiers! Admitedly, a large part of those cards are SCE, dodge, and maneuver cards used as defense, but this only goes to show that combat is a huge part of VtES, even if it can't really stand alone on its own feet.
I agree - being brainwashed and bled out by turn 4 is worse than having a pure combat deck killing your minions.
Replied by skimflux on topic [Fairyworld] Examining combat cards and strategies and how they should work
(...)I would argue that the popularity of Pentex Subversion and Banishment shows that combat is not really 'too far away from the win condition' but rather that it is not as efficient as those more popular cards.
If 80% to 90% of a deck is just combat, instead of stealth N bleed or a solid politics module, you're fardest from the win condition than the other 2 counterparts.
That just goes back to the efficiency point - an 80% to 90% stealth deck would have the same issue, yet I doubt anyone would say that stealth is innefficient - about 45% of all winning decks use stealth cards.
The difference (IMO) is that often 1-2 stealth cards are enough to make an action successful, yet with combat you will need 3-4 cards for a 'successful' combat, and then you still need a second minion to get your action through.
So a stealth module can be made with as little as 4-8 cards (average in the TWDA is 11), but few decks will be able to use combat aggressively with less than 12 cards.
Combat is effectively not a part of the game competitively. Decks routinely running around with a few red cards is curious as an acceptable meta end game. About 20% of the cards in game are combat cards and deck representation is far below that.
The TWDA disproves that: over 90% of the TWDA decks have combat cards, with an average count of 17 cards/deck, just below 20% - about on par with all action modifiers! Admitedly, a large part of those cards are SCE, dodge, and maneuver cards used as defense, but this only goes to show that combat is a huge part of VtES, even if it can't really stand alone on its own feet.
The notion that combat prevents people from playing the decks they like in some disparate manner is patently false. It is more punishing to be bled for 6 than to have a 6 cap put into torpor. Rescues and hunts are built into the game with the former capable by another player. Pool is the meta resource.
I agree - being brainwashed and bled out by turn 4 is worse than having a pure combat deck killing your minions.
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24 Jul 2018 17:48 #89278
by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic [Fairyworld] Examining combat cards and strategies and how they should work
What powers are you using to extract this data? I just see a list of decks.
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24 Jul 2018 17:51 #89279
by kschaefer
It get's all rough around the edges when you do that. So, my guess is that the "real" average is higher.
Replied by kschaefer on topic [Fairyworld] Examining combat cards and strategies and how they should work
That depends on what you consider successful. Personally, I prefer the short-chain combat definition. The goal is to come out ahead, not necessarily "own" the enemy minion.The difference (IMO) is that often 1-2 stealth cards are enough to make an action successful, yet with combat you will need 3-4 cards for a 'successful' combat, and then you still need a second minion to get your action through.
Does that take into consideration the default action of the deck? Politics is already +1 stealth, so is Gremlins, for instance. I think you'd need to factor that into the average. Also stealth permanents: Jost, Opium Den, etc. equal 1 stealth card per turn. Did you factor in those as well?So a stealth module can be made with as little as 4-8 cards (average in the TWDA is 11), but few decks will be able to use combat aggressively with less than 12 cards.
It get's all rough around the edges when you do that. So, my guess is that the "real" average is higher.
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24 Jul 2018 18:05 #89280
by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic [Fairyworld] Examining combat cards and strategies and how they should work
Let us redesign stealth to resemble combat. We now break stealth into 3 categories: high stealth where you jump on building, low stealth where you go in sewers and subways, and side stealth that is more about disguises and sneaking. If you play side stealth and I play high intercept you get -1 stealth from the card but if you play low stealth and I play high intercept you get +1. This is obvious because I have a birds eye view from my high perch but cant see you in the sewers.
Now if you play 3 side stealth cards that is like a matching set in risk and all your stealth is doubled BUT I can counter it with 1 side, 1 high, and 1 low - I am monitoring everything!
To make things even more fun and interactive the action itself has a flavor: can be grape, apple, or banana. If my intercept card has the appropriate color your action ends unsuccessfully. You do have the option of changing the action flavor with some stealth cards and this is key to the meta game. Skilled players will realize that all the good stealth cards are grape and play heavy grape intercept.
Hopefully we can get this added in the next set.
Now if you play 3 side stealth cards that is like a matching set in risk and all your stealth is doubled BUT I can counter it with 1 side, 1 high, and 1 low - I am monitoring everything!
To make things even more fun and interactive the action itself has a flavor: can be grape, apple, or banana. If my intercept card has the appropriate color your action ends unsuccessfully. You do have the option of changing the action flavor with some stealth cards and this is key to the meta game. Skilled players will realize that all the good stealth cards are grape and play heavy grape intercept.
Hopefully we can get this added in the next set.
The following user(s) said Thank You: ruiza97
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