file Trap rewording

07 Aug 2018 12:36 #89756 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Trap rewording

TIL that I had been playing Trap wrong.

I've been reading it as: For the next three rounds (including this round), if any combat cards were played, the Trap provides an automatic press to continue combat.

But now I'm learning the Trap effect can remain active for dozens of rounds, and grant dozens of potential presses.

But I don't like the proposed wording. Combat cards are supposed to be one-time-use>play>do-the-effect>go-to-ash-heap-cards. Combat cards should never sit in play or have counters. (Blah blah WWS blah blah.) VTES has always ignored the purpose of card types which is suppose to be rules for timing, play, and permanence. We've got Locations that are Equipment but aren't, Combat cards that act like Equipment but aren't, Master cards that are played as Combat cards, and now the idea is to make a Combat card sit in play with counters like its a Master card.

The result of proposed wording is inelegant (more card text) and fiddly (moving counters on and off for an indeterminate amount of rounds, back and forth.) No thanks.


As you state, VTES has a precedence for including cards with "fiddly" effects and long, inelegant text. That's not going away. In this context, I'd much rather have card with a "fiddly" effect and long, clear text that appropriately describes what should happen (like the new Trap, or Mask of 1,000 Faces as another example) than a "fiddly" effect with insufficient description (like the old Trap, or Madness Network). If one finds long card text inelegant, one can choose not to play with those cards (I never actually use Mask of 1,000 Faces for this reason even though I like how it is written).
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07 Aug 2018 12:46 #89759 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Trap rewording

At BCP, we are considering changing the text of Trap to:
...
Do you find it clearer this way? If not why?


Irrespective of the specifics of the text, I fear that this would be a text change that a lot of the time people wouldn't actually follow to the letter, because fiddling with counters can be faffsome, especially when they're only round for a very short amount of time.
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07 Aug 2018 13:02 #89763 by Azel
Replied by Azel on topic Trap rewording
I sorta wish On the Qui Vive came with a counter... 'cuz the cheating phase (*ahem* "I forgot," "innocent mistake" phase) never ends! :P

As for Trap, confusing but sorta the best you can do as is. Counters, and multiples of them, bring their own meta-gaming combo seeking, atop already bewildering players. Side me partial to counting fingers (attached ones! :sick: ) instead.

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07 Aug 2018 13:16 - 07 Aug 2018 13:24 #89766 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Trap rewording

Combat cards are supposed to be one-time-use>play>do-the-effect>go-to-ash-heap-cards.


Not really. We already have weighted walking sticks, disarms, pulled fangs, guns being equipped midcombat and whatever. There is nothing inherently wrong in the proposed wording in my opinion.

Because it provides explicit, clear guidelines on exactly how many counters should be on the card. If you remove "if any" or "not to exceed", people are likely to ask, "what if there are already 3 counters" and "can I put more than 3 on the card," respectively.

The wording is already explicit. Assuming people understand english, that is.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 07 Aug 2018 13:24 by Bloodartist.

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07 Aug 2018 17:09 - 07 Aug 2018 17:15 #89777 by ReverendRevolver
Replied by ReverendRevolver on topic Trap rewording

I sorta wish On the Qui Vive came with a counter... 'cuz the cheating phase (*ahem* "I forgot," "innocent mistake" phase) never ends! :P

As for Trap, confusing but sorta the best you can do as is. Counters, and multiples of them, bring their own meta-gaming combo seeking, atop already bewildering players. Side me partial to counting fingers (attached ones! :sick: ) instead.


I've totally been blocked by the Same minion on the Q'ing multiple times, at a tournament years back, but probably could have pushed harder for judge intervention.

I appreciate the clarity added by visual aid, but I don't know a way to declutter wording.

If it had only 2 rounds of presses, it could come into play locked, then unlock, then burn the round it was already unlocked st the end.
Since we dont have 3 states of locked, unlocked, locked backwards, there isn't a "turn the card" way of timing it, but we need a less cluttered counter explanation.

So maybe:
Only usable before range is determined during the first round of combat.
Put this card in play with 3 counters. It cannot have more than 3 counters.Each time a card is played this combat, add 3 counters. During the press step of each round this combat, this Trap automatically burns 1 counter from itself to provide 1 press to continue combat (either combatant can press to end combat). Burn this card at the end of combat.

Or
Only usable before range is determined during the first round of combat.
Put this card into play. Each time a card is played this combat(including trap), add counters to this card until it has 3 counters. During the press step of each round this combat, this Trap automatically burns 1 counter from itself to provide 1 press to continue combat (either combatant can press to end combat). Burn this card at the end of combat.
Last edit: 07 Aug 2018 17:15 by ReverendRevolver.

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07 Aug 2018 18:11 - 07 Aug 2018 18:15 #89782 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Trap rewording

The wording is already explicit. Assuming people understand english, that is.


Except that two people who understand English misunderstood the current wording. I do think the current wording needs to take into account what happens when 3 counters are already on the card, or if you play more than one combat card in a round. I guarantee people will wonder what happens if you can't put any counters on the card, or if they must put excess counters on the card for multiple combat cards played in the round.
Last edit: 07 Aug 2018 18:15 by TwoRazorReign.
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