file Potential Logical changes to a few melee weapons

07 Nov 2022 05:07 - 07 Nov 2022 05:29 #106725 by ReverendRevolver
So,
There are some things that bothered me alot as a new player almost 20 years ago, that dont come up at all now.(because some of the cards are unplayably bad)

But they still make 0 sense.
I do apologize, as this was brought up in less detail awhile ago.

www.vekn.net/forum/expansion-sets-card-ideas/78211-giving-more-melee-weapons-bundi-value

But with PoD, and reprints popping up in precons, this felt like a good time to bring it up again.

Bundi:
Melee weapon
Costs 2 pool.
Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. (This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike). Bearer may prevent 1 damage from each melee weapon strike made against him or her.

This is not a "Bundi", because that's a city in India. It's a Katar. In the 18th and 19th centuries, ornate katars were made in this city.
When ccp/whitewolf were in charge, it was a moot point, didn't matter.
But now, Along with the fact that at LEAST 2 other melee weapons in vtes made 100% more sense than this obscure thing to count as both a melee weapon and hand strike.

Because another weapon from India also would do similar things, with a name that's just "tiger claw" in hindi
Bang Nakh
Melee weapon.
2 pool
Strike: strength+2 damage.

This is obviously closer in art and name than the bundi. But why the heck is it not a hand and melee strike? I can totally see that coming up when someone's got me by the lapels more realistically than a long push dagger like the Katar. Similar to the Katar, it goes back to at least the 1600s.

To say nothing of the most common and least "vtes useful " of these….
Brass knuckles
Melee weapon.
Strength+1 damage each strike, only usable once each combat.

Brass knuckles evolved from (you should have guessed) an Indian weapon, older than the other 2 (12th century) and were found in Western culture by the 1800s.

0 cost? You can buy them at souvenir shops labeled as "belt buckles " so that checks out.
Once per combat?
That's harsh. I never understood why that's not once per round.
Or, obviously, why it's not also a handstrike.
In high-school, I remember people hiding these under the long sleeves of their hoodies for the ensuing fights after rivalry football games.
Any movies about small time criminals after WW2 is bound to have a greaser or a guy with bad teeth in a bowler hat putting on brass knuckles. Super common. To punch people with.
Like as a "hand strike". Even while grappling.

So, before these admittedly limited use cards get reprints, can we do the right thing and AT LEAST make them all do "hand and melee" strikes, like bundi?



I'd personally like to see more.
Brass Knuckles
Cost0
Melee weapon.
Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. (This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike),only usable once each round.
Now not great, but not absolutely useless.


Bundi (katar)
Melee weapon
Costs 2 pool.
Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. (This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike). Bearer may prevent 1 damage from each melee weapon strike made against him or her.

I don't think this is bad, because of that prevent part. Dropping it to 1 pool is too cheap, but I could be wrong. Nobody plays cleaver or bastardSword. Maybe a reduction is reasonable?

Bang Nakh
Melee weapon.
2 pool

Strike: hand strike at +2 damage.(This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike).

These aren't game breaking, by any means.
But they fix a logical issue I've had for ages regarding bundi counting as a hand strike and the 2 knuckles worn melee weapons not.

Realistically, grapple is why melee weapons are trash(grappleshuts down the best combat, sce, as well as :ani: bats and :cel: guns, and by happenstance other garbage stuff too). The best one is WWS. Followed by any combo with Talbots Chainsaw(-not technicallya "melee" weapon).
None of these changes breaks anything.
Of the 5 crypt cards that benefit from melee weapons, none benefit more from these than blade of bellona or bundi as is.
Last edit: 07 Nov 2022 05:29 by ReverendRevolver.
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07 Nov 2022 05:27 #106726 by ReverendRevolver
My only other issue is

Nightstick
Melee weapon.
Strike: strength+1 damage. Or strike: prevent 3 damage to this striking minion from the opposing minion's next hand or melee weapon strike this round (including any currently-resolving hand or melee weapon strike). Only usable once each round.

Why?
Because of the once each round clause. Without that, it would be playable. Anything with :cel: or :CEL: has access to additional strikes, and maneuvers. Striking to prevent and then hitting someone with a stick seems like it's thematically in line with celerity in the source material as well as the other "stick" cards in vtes (WWS, kerrie, poker)

There are 32 (+wws)melee weapons in print that I know of, and Chainsaw, Talbots Chainsaw, and Blowtorch that are only usable as a weapon at close range but not labeled as such. Most are unplayable. Stick and Talbots are the best non gun weapons in the game, and everything else melee is pretty narrow, Blade of Bellona, your odd one off meat hook, or an agg poking femur or knife.
The rest are basically wallpaper.

Is there a risk errata-ing these?

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07 Nov 2022 06:59 #106727 by Ankha

Realistically, grapple is why melee weapons are trash(grappleshuts down the best combat, sce, as well as :ani: bats and :cel: guns, and by happenstance other garbage stuff too).

No, they are trash because they are weaker than their gun counterpart for the same price.
Consider Bang Nahk vs .44 Magnum.
Price: the same
Damage: 3 on the opposing, 1 on the bearer for BN, 2 on the opposing and 0 on the bearer for .44 Magnum

Even if the damage difference is the same, it's infinitely better not to take damage at all, because you will never get to torpor this way, and can do as many combats as you want.

Furthermore, being at long range protects you from many strikes.

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07 Nov 2022 08:20 #106730 by Khaan
I totally agree with ReverendRevolver.

As a side note, note that Bundi's ability to be used both as a melee and hand strike interacts in the following way with Immortal grapple:

Cannot be used with a strike card that reads: "Strike: make a hand strike." but can be use it with a strike card that reads "strike: make a weapon strike" (eg. {Brute Force}). In that case, the strike is still considered a hand strike (ie. can be chosen if {Immortal Grapple} has been played) [LSJ 20080702-1]

(groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/JtLgB7Apqq0/lWdtq38KJ-wJ) [LSJ 20090114](groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/fZIdIRDDxdo/dtdSNVk_IIkJ)

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07 Nov 2022 13:11 #106733 by ReverendRevolver

I totally agree with ReverendRevolver.

As a side note, note that Bundi's ability to be used both as a melee and hand strike interacts in the following way with Immortal grapple:

Cannot be used with a strike card that reads: "Strike: make a hand strike." but can be use it with a strike card that reads "strike: make a weapon strike" (eg. {Brute Force}). In that case, the strike is still considered a hand strike (ie. can be chosen if {Immortal Grapple} has been played) [LSJ 20080702-1]

(groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/JtLgB7Apqq0/lWdtq38KJ-wJ) [LSJ 20090114](groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/fZIdIRDDxdo/dtdSNVk_IIkJ)

Vaguely important now, because Roundhouse is quite playable, but pushing the limit costs blood for the same effect and BF is weaker with a dnr. Roundhouse can't be used, since bundhi wording is thstbit is the strike.

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07 Nov 2022 13:50 - 07 Nov 2022 14:16 #106736 by ReverendRevolver

Realistically, grapple is why melee weapons are trash(grappleshuts down the best combat, sce, as well as :ani: bats and :cel: guns, and by happenstance other garbage stuff too).

No, they are trash because they are weaker than their gun counterpart for the same price.
Consider Bang Nahk vs .44 Magnum.
Price: the same
Damage: 3 on the opposing, 1 on the bearer for BN, 2 on the opposing and 0 on the bearer for .44 Magnum

Even if the damage difference is the same, it's infinitely better not to take damage at all, because you will never get to torpor this way, and can do as many combats as you want.

Furthermore, being at long range protects you from many strikes.

We can dive into that rabbit hole,

I'm a notorious user of 44 Magnum. Conceal it out, and In a vacuum (if nobody plays cards) you shoot for 2, take none. But people play cards, and :CEL: with the 44 has answers; :POT: slams to close, you can pursuit to long. Ivory bow? Sideslip at superior. :ani: can blow up the gun, but that's typically 1 per deck, the real issue is putting them down round 1 with additionals , or pressing to end before playing psyche and hoping no more crows in the next combat. Similar if they DotB, you're hoping to deliver 3 strikes at close range to drop them, because they'll come out ahead otherwise.
The only thing that really trumps :CEL: guns in a solid deck is is free sce that untaps (earth meld) if ran in numbers exceeding 15 where they will always have one even if you psyche.

Melee weapons will NEVER be able to have that level of efficiency.
(Cost efficiency compared to the gun equivalent would actually be an idea for another card, some weapon that routinely can be used in pairs to explain a prevent 1 as well as a strike. With my suggested modification, brass knuckles would balance as a strictly worse TsP or zip gun. )
But, :pot: currently can't work with weapons outside of bundi, :FOR: prevent and press uses stick for efficiency reasons.
What harm can come from brass knuckles or bang nakh going in decks instead of heroic might or a baseball bat?

It's not about being game breaking, it's a matter of making the cards work logically (which is cornercase, but nice for new players to see) as well as taking cards from unplayable to barely playable.
Last edit: 07 Nov 2022 14:16 by ReverendRevolver.
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