file Gangrel Torpor - My first deck from a long time

16 May 2016 14:40 #76941 by Old_Spirit
I finally found the time to go through all the cards and watch a couple of games on Lackey.
I tried myself at deckbuilding, but I am pretty sure the deck can be refined, I am not even sure it will really work in the end, but I really would love to give a shot at a Combat Gangrel like I used to play back in the Sabbat days.
Without further ado here's the deck, any critics and suggestions are welcome.

Deck Name : Gangrel Torpor
Author : Old Spirit
Description :
Deck aim at keep sending opponent vampire to torpor to refill own vampire and slowly bleed or burn enemies pools with masters and events.


Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 9 max: 11 average: 10
4xEnkidu, The Noah(11):ANI: :CEL: :OBF: :POT: :PRO: :for:Gangrel antitribu(group 4)
4xMatasuntha(10):ANI: :AUS: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO:Gangrel(group 5)
2xAksinya Daclau(9):ANI: :FOR: :PRE: :PRO: :cel: :tha:Gangrel antitribu(group 4)
2xInyanga(9):ANI: :AUS: :FOR: :PRO: :dom: :nec:primogenGangrel(group 4)

Library [90 cards]

Action [13]
5x Army of Rats
3x Dual Form
5x Taunt the Caged Beast

Action Modifier [6]
6x Kiss of Ra, The

Combat [25]
12x Body Flare
6x Form of Mist
7x Mythic Form

Event [3]
2x Dragonbound
1x NSA Trio

Master [22]
1x Antediluvian Awakening
4x Blood Doll
3x Dreams of the Sphinx
1x Fame
1x Fortschritt Library
1x Giant's Blood
1x Golconda: Inner Peace
2x Parthenon, The
2x Path of Lilith, The
1x Pentex(TM) Subversion
2x Wider View
3x Zillah's Valley

Reaction [21]
7x Cats' Guidance
7x Guard Dogs
7x Instinctive Reaction

NB: I add to manually delete links because I couldn't post otherwise (too many links error). Is it normal ? It's because I am new ? What's the maximum number allowed ?

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16 May 2016 16:17 #76942 by ICL

Action [13]
5x Army of Rats
3x Dual Form
5x Taunt the Caged Beast


Why so many Army of Rats?

Action Modifier [6]
6x Kiss of Ra, The


This is somewhere between 4x and 6x more than what I'd play. Is the metagame you expect to be a ton of non-Velya Tzimisce, Goratrix, etc.?

Combat [25]
12x Body Flare
6x Form of Mist
7x Mythic Form


I don't understand your combat at all. Mythic Form is a bad card that is for humor value, whether you go Dragos Dragon or Horrock Clan Impersonates an !Gangrel or whatever. Body Flare is less bad, but what's the point of playing Body Flare with Enkidu? What happens when someone aggs you back or dodges with additional guns or sticks you with damage prevent or just combat ends?

Enkidu gets played as much as he does because he Grapples or Psyches! with str-3 not so you can spend 2 blood to do 2 agg.

Master [22]
1x Antediluvian Awakening
4x Blood Doll
3x Dreams of the Sphinx
1x Fame
1x Fortschritt Library
1x Giant's Blood
1x Golconda: Inner Peace
2x Parthenon, The
2x Path of Lilith, The
1x Pentex(TM) Subversion
2x Wider View
3x Zillah's Valley


How do you plan on not being ousted? You play superexpensive vampires with four Blood Dolls.

Reaction [21]
7x Cats' Guidance
7x Guard Dogs
7x Instinctive Reaction


Someone votes with, say, Majesty defense, and you do what? Aksinya helps a lot, but you will have virtually no pool for when bleeds do land.

I don't understand your comment about refilling vampires. From what? Diablerie. You should burn either in a bloodhunt or from Carlton. Also, how about some Freak Drives or Forced Marches?

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16 May 2016 17:09 #76944 by Old_Spirit
Just to clarify : I am unaware of current meta, there's no group in my area so I plan to play only on Lackey.
I understand my deck, after a long absence (15 years) from the game, have lot of flaws.
It's the reason I posted here to look for help and better understand.

I'll try to answer you by point.

Why so many Army of Rats?


Well honestly just to get them as early as possible

This is somewhere between 4x and 6x more than what I'd play. Is the metagame you expect to be a ton of non-Velya Tzimisce, Goratrix, etc.?


See above, I have no clue on the meta going on Lackey atm. I just saw in a few game I spectate, all people using only 9-10 capacity vampire.
I just thought it can be useful vs Vampire that may dodge/combat ends/or going hard on melee.
The whole point is to send as much as possible vampire into torpor to trigger Path of Lilith and Dragonbound and slow the game down to my peace.


I don't understand your combat at all. Mythic Form is a bad card that is for humor value, whether you go Dragos Dragon or Horrock Clan Impersonates an !Gangrel or whatever. Body Flare is less bad, but what's the point of playing Body Flare with Enkidu? What happens when someone aggs you back or dodges with additional guns or sticks you with damage prevent or just combat ends?

Enkidu gets played as much as he does because he Grapples or Psyches! with str-3 not so you can spend 2 blood to do 2 agg.


I do understand is not a so good of a card, but it gives for an optional maneuver and prevent 1 dmg, while allowing for 2r agg. I definitely prefer Body flare.
The whole concept, for the deck as well for the combat, is to send the opposite vampire to torpor.
2r agg seems the better chance to achieve that without getting into melee, force maneuver to close, that would require much more cards in hand to be effective.
I do see your point in problems with dodge and damage prevention, while for the combat ends I try to avoid it with NSA trio. For the decks I saw in TWD from secret Library, very few make use of combat cards different from combat ends. Form of mist it's there just to get away in case of unwanted combat.

I was unaware Enkidu gets to be played a lot, I choose him only for the ability to get in direct combat with a target vampire, so I can send to torpor the biggest threat.

How do you plan on not being ousted? You play superexpensive vampires with four Blood Dolls.


The idea is to move the blood from the vampire to me, slowly with the blood dolls. Should I play more of them ? What alternatives do you suggest ? Also Matasuntha give you 1 pool each time the opposing minion leave the ready region, and on this I rely with this deck.

Someone votes with, say, Majesty defense, and you do what? Aksinya helps a lot, but you will have virtually no pool for when bleeds do land.

I don't understand your comment about refilling vampires. From what? Diablerie. You should burn either in a bloodhunt or from Carlton. Also, how about some Freak Drives or Forced Marches?


What's Majesty defense ? I am aware of how important s to not land any bleed in this deck. For what I saw very few on Lackey play weenie deck, so I should be able to deal with them with the many reactions, but I may be totally wrong on it.

I was planning on Diablerie, once in a while, if voting vampire are already into torpor.

I thought about Freak drives but I have very few action except from bleeds and lot of reaction to untap when needed. But I guess Enkidu with drives can attack more times each turn make it wortwhile now that I think about it.

I want to understand if the overall philosopy ( just send other to torpor and slowly burn player thx to the master/event interaction) doable or not in your opinions, and eventually how to improve the deck.

Thanks for your time.

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16 May 2016 17:40 - 16 May 2016 17:47 #76945 by Zombieking
hey,
yeah i reckon you can trim this somewhat..

mythic form is super expensive for what you get. you're already packing loads of body flare for that ranged agg. i'd be inclined to lose mythic alogether.

i see you have prospective pool recovery in there from taunt the caged beast, but probably worth adding some taste of vitae for blood recovery. and myb a few villein given how big your vamps are - got to get some of that precious pool back!

two parthenons is too much. you could drop a couple of army of rats, and lose some kiss of ra's too.

'Carver's Meat Packing and Storage' is a fun card which would sit well if you added it to this deck. it provides blood gain, and puts extra pressure on little things in torpor.

myb getsome good old fashioned claws of the dead in there - cheap agg and a manouver. couple of raven spies for permanent intercept. myb even a few fortitude damage prevention?

anyway, good luck with the deck. sometimes you have to play these things a few times before you can see just how it does perform.
Last edit: 16 May 2016 17:47 by Zombieking.

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16 May 2016 20:09 #76946 by Ashur
If you really have to play a Enkidu deck, try a good one. I don´t know, but maybe something like this www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=13828 or any other Enkidu deck with a tournament win.

"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

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16 May 2016 20:35 - 16 May 2016 20:40 #76947 by jamesatzephyr

Why so many Army of Rats?


Well honestly just to get them as early as possible


Why is getting them as early as possible something you're aiming for? No matter how many you have in play, they do one pool damage a turn, total. Not one per Army, one total. With such big vampires, you generally want to be doing more with your actions than that.

I do understand is not a so good of a card, but it gives for an optional maneuver and prevent 1 dmg, while allowing for 2r agg. I definitely prefer Body flare.


Neither of them are good options as the solid basis of a deck, because they're massively expensive. And people play Majesty a lot.

What's Majesty defense ?


People play Strike: Combat Ends a lot, because it's strong. Majesty is one of the more popular forms of S:CE, because it comes with Presence, which is a good discipline. Earth Meld and Form of Mist are also excellent, from Protean.

Your combat basically consists of: play a very expensive card up front (Mythic Form or Body Flare) and hope to god no-one plays Strike: Combat Ends. When you are acting, your opponent plays his strike after you, so even with Body Flare, you've paid 2 blood for a strike - only to find your opponent playing Majesty. So on average you are spending a lot more blood than most effective combat decks, and not getting much of it back. Pretty much all the effective combat archetypes at this point either: a) can counter combat defence like Strike: Combat Ends (and, in the case of Immortal Grapple, a whole heap of strikes) or b) don't spend a lot of blood knowing they might see combat end, but have a strong combat strategy anyway (e.g. .44 Magnum gun decks, weenie Animalism decks, Fortitude+Weighted-Walking-Stick 'grinder' decks).

One of your stated options is getting blood back via diablerie. This is bad, because a) you stand to get your vampire burned anyway, even if the titled vampires are dead, because people have political action cards and the Edge at their disposal, and your only source of votes is Inyanga; and b) you have to take an action to do that, when other combat decks are doing with Taste of Vitae. Wasting actions is bad, when your vampires are huge.

3x Dual Form


This is a fun, but incredibly dangerous, card. If either of the vampires is burned or goes to torpor, the other burns. And you have very little by way of strong combat defence.

You do have six Form of Mist. But they don't help you very much against one of the best combat strategies in the game - Immortal Grapple, which prevents strikes that aren't hand strikes. The deck aims to stay at close range, so will have counters to your one maneuver from Mythic Form(*), and plays Immortal Grapple so you can't Form of Mist. Now, one thing most Protean decks can do in this occasion is what's known as 'aggro-poke' - hit back with a hand strike that's been made aggravated by a claw card, such as Wolf Claws, Claws of the Dead etc. You have Body Flare, and Mythic Form. Mythic Form gives you +1 strength, so you can hit for 2 hand damage - but the 2R aggravated strike at superior is not a hand strike, even at close range. Neither level of Body Flare is a hand strike.

So... you can pay 3 blood from Mythic Form to hit for 2 damage, against a deck that's probably going to hit you for a ton (overwhelming your 1 damage prevention), then send you to torpor with Disarm. And if you've Dual Formed, you lose two vampires for the price of one combat - very much not fun.

(*) You also have a maneuver from Taunt the Caged Beast at inferior. But if the target Methuselah can block the action, you end up in combat (because of the block) - but you don't have that maneuver, because that comes as part of a successful action, and you just got blocked. And if the Immortal Grapple deck just rushed you, you can't be using the Taunt the Caged Beast maneuver anyway.



Mono-Protean combat is tough to make work well with very big vampires, because you don't have a strong action advantage (like a weenie combat deck might), you don't have Immortal Grapple, you don't have Psyche! (and even if you did, you're wasting a lot of blood up-front), you don't have Telepathic Tracking etc. If you're playing with Enkidu, consider utilising his Potence too. Animalism has Carrion Crows, which is a very solid combat card.

In general, you're paying for some very big vampires, and only using a small portion of their disciplines, which means things aren't very cost effective.
Last edit: 16 May 2016 20:40 by jamesatzephyr.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Old_Spirit

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