Expansion Update

Lönkka wrote:

AFAIK the problem really doesn't exist in US since mail fraud is a federal offfence, right?

this is true. I think it helps that you can send something with tracking and know that they have received it.

brandonsantacruz wrote:

I wonder if the issue for people who would not like to see proxies is more about feeling like they shouldn't have spent the money on cards in the first place if they will become nearly free or if it has to do with expected trade/resale value. Anyone care to weigh in on that?

Edit: *Or does it have to do with being willing to pay to have an advantage in the game? Or none of the above.

The feeling isn't "I shouldn't have spent the money...". It is more a feel of pity when you recall the efforts you took to get the cards. It's not about the money. It is how proud you are of the skill of haggling and persuasion to get cards. Or if you think what cards you gave away to get the da*** Preternatural Strength or sth. You tried hard to get all those War Ghouls and now everybody can print it out for free and play the deck.

I'm all for proxies in casual games, really. I very much support the idea to first have a look if the deck with that cards is good and if it is worth it to buy or trade the cards.

I'm not so sure if I like proxies for tournaments. I know the stop of the production calls for that solution. But it leaves a bad taste for the collectors indeed. It's just a feeling of "oh great, my efforts were more or less in vain". (Which isn't true of course. Because you still could play the decks in the past before a pro-proxy decision.)

Joscha wrote:

brandonsantacruz wrote:

I wonder if the issue for people who would not like to see proxies is more about feeling like they shouldn't have spent the money on cards in the first place if they will become nearly free or if it has to do with expected trade/resale value. Anyone care to weigh in on that?

Edit: *Or does it have to do with being willing to pay to have an advantage in the game? Or none of the above.

The feeling isn't "I shouldn't have spent the money...". It is more a feel of pity when you recall the efforts you took to get the cards. It's not about the money. It is how proud you are of the skill of haggling and persuasion to get cards. Or if you think what cards you gave away to get the da*** Preternatural Strength or sth. You tried hard to get all those War Ghouls and now everybody can print it out for free and play the deck.

I'm all for proxies in casual games, really. I very much support the idea to first have a look if the deck with that cards is good and if it is worth it to buy or trade the cards.

I'm not so sure if I like proxies for tournaments. I know the stop of the production calls for that solution. But it leaves a bad taste for the collectors indeed. It's just a feeling of "oh great, my efforts were more or less in vain". (Which isn't true of course. Because you still could play the decks in the past before a pro-proxy decision.)

Having used most of my hobby budget while in University on VtES, I relate to what you're saying.
But by comparison, I feel that not having the chance to play competitively in a good environment just because KoT boosters and Heirs decks are not available to the new players is a worse taste to have.
For each older player that has all the cards that quits the game, we need two neonates. Usually the older players quit, but don't sell / give away their cards.
We need the new players here or the game will die. As simple as that.
Proxies will come sooner or later.
Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow.
But soon and for the rest our torpor.

I feel that not having the chance to play competitively in a good environment just because KoT boosters and Heirs decks are not available to the new players is a worse taste to have.

You know full well that this is complete bullshit.

No, you can't play Villeins and Deep Songs if you don't own any. Yes, that limits you in your deck choice. No, that doesn't make you uncompetitive.

As an example. I have built 8 decks for next week's EC. Only 4 of those contain any sort of Villein/Ashur Tablets/Deep Song stuff. The other 4 are all built with cards that are still available for a LOT less than I acquired them for a few years ago. I consider all 8 competitive decks.

So no, you don't need proxies to be competitive. Neither do you need rares. That argument has come up quite literally a few thousand times now and it has always been nonsense.

You did that because you had that choice.
Good for you.
Now please stop comparing your case (with lots of choices) with people that have 1 or 2 pre constructed decks. Even if they buy a box of boosters, the rares they get are rather irrelevant to the players like you and me that already have them. Yes, I can borrow cards to people.

Or people go the other way, play with their own cards and have little choice between budget Law Firm, crypt 2/3 Stealth and Bleed and / bruise bleed.
Even then there's cards like Magic of the Smith, Heart of Nizchetus, Monastery of Shadows, etc., that could be useful.

When I started playing I did the decks I liked because Magic of the Smith and the like weren't ridiculously priced. Otherwise we might not be having this conversation.
Right now, I agree that you can make a successful deck under 100 US Dollars.
But I think that might change soon. And I think that forcing new players to play Dolphin Black or Jost Werner is not very good for the game.

PS: since I like to help my new players as much as possible, I would like to ask you to tell me what are those 4 budget decks by PM.
I'm not going to the EC and will keep them a secret, don't worry.

Brum wrote:

Now please stop comparing your case (with lots of choices) with people that have 1 or 2 pre constructed decks. Even if they buy a box of boosters, the rares they get are rather irrelevant to the players like you and me that already have them. Yes, I can borrow cards to people.

That argument dosent make any sense. Yes ofcouse, people who have only a few card have limited posibilities and might not be able to make all the top tier decks. But that would also be true if the game was still in print. With that argument, you could say that even if the game was being printed you should have the option to play proxies, becouse some might only have two pre.constructed decks to build from. I peronally hate proxies, if im in a play group where they are used, ill ofcouse accept it, but in my pg we try to aviod it.

And about villein, after they started to go for like 5-6$ arent it kinda a mute point?
"yes, i will spend 100s/1.000s of $ to go to this tournement, but i just WONT pay 6$ for a Villein, or even just ask to borrow them"