Card idea: Namtaru

Amenophobis wrote:

Ankha wrote:

Amenophobis wrote:

Well, interesting. But he is way off points-wise. I'd count it for 21 points, not considerung the disadvantage.
11-caps should have about 14 (11+3).

That's perfect, he costs 21 point of influence to get out.

Um, no. The points formula is there to balance vampires wrt their capacity, disciplines and specials.
Each vampire has to be taken for himself, points wise. You can attach a disadvantage (e.g. the vampire-removal thing), to balance the points. However, this is not balanced.

First of all, according to the "create a clan" rules, he should have 17 points to spend (14 for its capacity, +3 since it's infernal).

It cost : 14 (disciplines) + 1 (flight) + 3 (+2 bleed) + 3 (+2 strength) + X (immunity) + Y (contagion like) = 21 + X + Y.

But Nergal costs: 12 (disciplines ) + 3 (+2 bleed) + X (card reduction) = 15 + X
Cybele and Hutizilopochtly : : 12 (disciplines ) + 1.5 (+1/2 bleed) + Y (MPA) = 13.5 + Y. So rougthly they are already undercosted.

I think that spending more than 4 (7 without acceleration) turns influencing a vampire and removing a 10-cap vampire from play (with 2-3 turns where it's vulnerable) is worth the 4+X+Y additional points.

Amenophobis wrote:

You can bring out a 10-cap Baali, and Villein down to 1, then take a big bleed action that costs a blood, and remove him at the end of the influence phase for the Namtaru.

You can't do that in 2 consequent turns. By turn 3, the 10-cap is out. You need 2-3 more turns to get out Namtaru. So you'll play Villein + bleed on turn 6? I guess you'll want to villein earlier not to die. So it leaves the 10-cap vulnerable for 3 turns, until Namtaru comes out.
And on turn 7, you're game is over if you don't have that Villein in time.

Amenophobis wrote:

How do you properly rate the pool you regained and the actions the vampire took into the disadvantage?
You can't.

That's true for any vampire. Villein allows you to get all the pool back, so an 11-cap can always be "free". As you said, we must take into account only the vampire's ability and drawbacks when evaluating his capacity, not something that may happen during the game (the fact that you villeined the 10-cap).

Non-existant user wrote:

Immunity to damage is not fun, it just removes some more interaction from the game.

Then Muaziz and Theo are not fun, they're immune to Blood Hunts. Secure Haven isn't neither, because you can't perfom actions any more. And "immune to damage" doesn't mean it can't be beaten in combat or using actions. Steal blood/burn blood does the trick, Coma can send him to torpor etc.
It could be nerfed with something like "Immune to non-aggravated damage and treats aggravated damage as normal damage" but I don't fell it needs to be nerfed (but I may be proven wrong).

Mephistopheles wrote:

If you optimize your library to bring him out asap and have 2 villeins in time you will have to put many master cards into your deck. Once Cybele (for example) is gone you lose that extra mpa and your hand will jam with masters. Considering this and the number of turns to influence while basically not really doing anything might actually lead to him being underpowered.

It seems to me that with such a vampire you need very active turns otherwise it's just too late. Many masters to bring him out contradicts with active turns, since your card flow will be interrupted by mentioned masters.

There is a narrow line between over and unerpowered here. Will be hard to find it.

Sure. It may even be plainly unplayable because of the setup you need around (lots of Zillah's Valley + Villein, but also cards to do things with it).