file Submission - Cathedral of Flesh (master Tzimisce crypt accelerator)

12 Oct 2012 13:36 - 12 Oct 2012 13:37 #38992 by Kiddo
i like it as a concept, but as others have said, other vamps need to slow it down more easily. I like your revised proposition, Ankha, but perhaps I'd prefer it that nay vamp can burn 2 blood from a card, instead of original 1.

EDIT: How about you needing to use your transfer points for this card to work, in order to stop influencing this vampire and another one at the same time?
Last edit: 12 Oct 2012 13:37 by Kiddo.

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12 Oct 2012 14:20 #38993 by Ankha

EDIT: How about you needing to use your transfer points for this card to work, in order to stop influencing this vampire and another one at the same time?

We don't want to reprint Tomb of Ramses III, do we?

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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12 Oct 2012 14:49 #38995 by Izaak
Well, I'd say no, but with one of the deck design questions already being "how do I oust a prey that gains a lot of pool?" I don't think we need this either.

I mean, Tend the Flock creates 3 pool out of nowhere in exchange for an MPA and is considered a pretty damned strong card. Grooming the Protege doesn't create pool, but significantly speeds up the rate at which you can flip vampires and while it's not the best card ever, it sees a fair amount of play. Zillah's Valley costs a pool and only gives you 4 extra transfers for the turn and is played a LOT.

This card changes 1 pool into anywhere between 8 and 11 pool for one MPA and a few turns AND gives a free extra 3 transfers per turn for as long as it takes to bring out whomever you were bringing out.

Yes, it's mostly redundant if you draw it in turn 5+, but so is Zillah's. If you get it early, which isn't exactly a hard feat as shown by everyone drawing their turn-1 Zillah's just fine, it's broken. Flip Horatio turn 1, play CoF turn 2, influence out Meshenka the normal way and get Velya for free by turn 4!

In which universe is this balanced?
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12 Oct 2012 15:30 #38997 by Kiddo

We don't want to reprint Tomb of Ramses III, do we?

No, but as Izaak has already said, there is nothing prohibiting you from slowly 'influencing' one vampire via Cathedral, while at the same time influencing another one in a usual manner. Someone moved some counters from the Cathedral? Whatever, it's not like they can remove the master, your counters (and free vamp) will come out eventually, while you play your game as normal - the only setback is 1 pool and one MPA.

It's not like Tzimisce lack good vampires in capacity 8+.

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13 Oct 2012 02:43 #39013 by Reyda

Flip Horatio turn 1, play CoF turn 2, influence out Meshenka the normal way and get Velya for free by turn 4!

In which universe is this balanced?

You know, I would agree with you if I was not playing a game where people already influence inner circle using Zillah or info highway, then villein + giant blood them on the next turn.

Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

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13 Oct 2012 05:49 - 13 Oct 2012 05:51 #39019 by Ankha
I think we should distinguish 2 things:
1/ how much the card speeds up the influence of a vampire
2/ hom much blood / pool does the card make the player gain

Concerning 1/ the card is worse than many crypt acceleration if you plan to get that vampire out quickly. With 1 Zillah's Valley, you'd get a vampire in 1 or 2 turns, with Information Highway only 2 turns, even Powerbase: Montreal makes a 10-cap vampire appear in 2 turns.
Cathedral of Flesh requires at least 3 turns, possibly more if people on the table have some actions to spare. Of course, you can influence out other vampires at the same time so it's much like having +3 transfer on the same vampire each turn, which can be slowed down but cost nothing.

Concerning 2/ the card allows you to have a 8+ cap with 8+ blood for 1 pool. It's much better than the aforementioned cards that cost as much pool (+1 for Zillah) as you have blood on the vampire in the end. Some cards already exist that provide free transfer and blood gain (Great Symptosium, Eternals of Sirius), but maybe not as much.

To avoid free transfer + 8+ blood gain, we could consider nerfing the card:

If that vampire's capacity is reached or exceeded, return him or her to play in his or her owner's ready region with 4 blood from this card and burn this card.

(or 3 blood).

One last thing: the card is a location so is vulnerable to many cards.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 13 Oct 2012 05:51 by Ankha.

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