Nameless Victim - Red-List Convert

And Red List seem to be a general mechanism for "this one is tracked and there is a bounty on him", since sabbat vampire can collect trophy ; there is even one useful to sabbat only.

Actually, no. The general mechanism for this is blood hunt. And even then, it is limited to a single town, unless the prince takes additional effort to extend the blood hunt beyond his own domain. Red listing is done for heinous crimes against whole camarilla (usually only a clan of camarilla, and depending on deception it can be just for fun). Then again, given such level of "social ladder" of hunting down vamps, killing a 1 cap would never ever draw anyone into red list by itself. Perhaps, if caitiff would sire US president, and he was diablerised on live TV...

Therefore, I'd suggest that at least 8 cap should die in some horrible manner for framing someone on red-list level. E.g.

Frenzied Embrace (Version 4)
Caitiff
Capacity: 1
Unique. -1 bleed, -1 stealth. This vampire can take +1 stealth action to burn an 8cap+ you control and himself. If successful, move the blood on these vampires to your uncontrolled region and choose a vampire. Chosen vampire becomes red-listted. When this vampire enters play, draw a vampire from your crypt.

kombainas wrote:

Actually, no. The general mechanism for this is blood hunt. And even then, it is limited to a single town, unless the prince takes additional effort to extend the blood hunt beyond his own domain. Red listing is done for heinous crimes against whole camarilla (usually only a clan of camarilla, and depending on deception it can be just for fun).

Actually, what you say is wrong, because while it's what is red list in the lore, it's not what is it in VtES.

Else, explain why exactly the Regent of the Sabbat can Red List a Justicar, and why an Alastor can be offered Black Hand membership.

So, any kind of setup that can lead someone to be hunted with bounty by a powerful individual would be good. And suspicion of diablerie / destruction backed up by a suffisantly powerful individual would be enough - you just have to add some additional suspected misdeed, like the fact the nobody was witness of some infernalism or anything. It don't need to be true, just convincing enough.

Else, explain why exactly the Regent of the Sabbat can Red List a Justicar, and why an Alastor can be offered Black Hand membership.

Same way a setite can be the Ventrue Justicar

Plus, the agent of an action can be different from the minion paying for it (e.g. animalism employs aid from animals, just like Regent most definately could pull some strings in Camarilla if need be).

kombainas wrote:

Else, explain why exactly the Regent of the Sabbat can Red List a Justicar, and why an Alastor can be offered Black Hand membership.

Same way a setite can be the Ventrue Justicar

Plus, the agent of an action can be different from the minion paying for it (e.g. animalism employs aid from animals, just like Regent most definately could pull some strings in Camarilla if need be).

Ok for the regent but a mere bishop?

And you really can add anything you want RP speacking around the destruction of this nameless victim. Otherwise, the action "red list" should also burn a 8-cap in the process and a minion playing conceal weapon should have taken an action before to acquire this. 44 magnum and why do you need to ben a signpost to effectively use your 7 dot in potence and if there is no signpost available your just as weack as the avarage 12th generation embraced yesterday.

The fact is if you need to influence 9 points of vampire, take a no stealth action to make someone red list, it is interesting RP wise but we are playing VtES and there is other issues at stake.
(and sorry for my poor english)

kombainas wrote:

Same way a setite can be the Ventrue Justicar

Key difference : the setite were doing something sensible in-lore. Here, that's ... not exactly the case. A sabbat vampire can have some influence on the camarilla, but not something as huge as disavowing a Justicar.

And in any case, a justicar Red List who stay justicar is a major fail if we don't try at least a bit to rationalize the Red List as not alway being the Camarilla Red List.

kombainas wrote:

Plus, the agent of an action can be different from the minion paying for it (e.g. animalism employs aid from animals, just like Regent most definately could pull some strings in Camarilla if need be).

Now, the alastor who become sabbat and black hand can't do that stealthly or indirectly. I get it that an Alastor is supposed to be able to ask for mostly anything, but that's the kind of anything that land you on the red list immediatly thereafter.

In addition, all vampire with printed red list are loner and/or independant. Like it wasn't the ennemy of the camarilla, but the ennemy of all vampires.

kombainas wrote:

And Red List seem to be a general mechanism for "this one is tracked and there is a bounty on him", since sabbat vampire can collect trophy ; there is even one useful to sabbat only.

Actually, no. The general mechanism for this is blood hunt.

Not in V:TES.

[LSJ 20050121]

LSJ wrote:

In VTES, the Red List is not a Camarilla tool.

It is a mark that designates that someone in a position of power
wants someone else eliminated. That's all. It has a great deal
over overlap with the pseudo-VTES-canon material (i.e., the
RPG source books , in that the same vampires marked for
destruction in one are marked for destruction in the other
and vice versa et cetera ad naseum.

Along similar lines, the Black Hand does not represent (only) the WoD Black Hand, but various other hands too.