file A mean for :CHI: to have ousting power

22 May 2014 08:56 #62673 by Timo

And why isn't anyone doing this sort of thing at at the moment? Because bleeding for one or two all the time sucks for ousting, so it's slow, and dull. But now, I can thrown down your card, burn 2 blood, toss out 2 cards I no longer need and get +2 bleed, or at superior burn 1 blood, toss out 2 cards I no longer need and get +3 bleed.

Voluntary hand cycling is not a significant cost. Most of the time, it can be a huge benefit. No-one on the table is playing much intercept, so I can toss out this Fata Morgana and this Mirror Image? Well, I was going to throw one away with The Barrens, and probably discard the other in my discard phase, but now I can do that and get +3 bleed for the same cost as Conditioning.


This really isn't feeling "fun" for the game as a whole.


Actually, I agree with you on about everything you said in the part I dind'nt quote.

But I think there is a misunderstanding about what you said in the part I quote.

The idea is not at all to discard cards but to burn card allready in play.

So the idea is to burn a sensory (unlocking a minion) to gain bonus bleed.

I agree this card may be off but not so much off.

I really think the cost of it is high because of the blood cost AND the fact that you have to free some minions in order to have + X bleed.

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22 May 2014 09:32 - 22 May 2014 09:55 #62674 by jamesatzephyr

The idea is not at all to discard cards but to burn card allready in play.

So the idea is to burn a sensory (unlocking a minion) to gain bonus bleed.


Oh, duh, I somehow missed the words "in play".

I would still be very wary of allowing a deck to lunge with +5 bleed for an oust, by unlocking both of your prey's vampires. Domi-Ravnos is certainly a thing, and Govern+Newcard = +7 bleed.


Edit-to-add: on the flip-side, it could make Fatuus Mastery+Permanency a hilarious combo. Put them both in play this turn, and next turn get +5 bleed for free, using the two counters from Fatuus Mastery (superior). And it doesn't have to be this vampire who has the cards on him (obviously, for Sens Dep), so Salbatore or Gharston bring out Fatuus Mastery+Permanency, and some other vampire gets an immediate +5 bleed, and I get Fatuus Mastery back. Scrumptious.
Last edit: 22 May 2014 09:55 by jamesatzephyr.

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22 May 2014 10:08 #62675 by Timo
Again, you have to burn 2X cards to get 2X+1 bleed.

So you need to burn 2 CHI card in play to get a conditioning.

I guess it is OK.

But yes, if you burn 6 cards and pay 3 blood, you have a +7 bleed action modifier.

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22 May 2014 11:13 #62676 by FrançoisV
Anyway, chimerstry does not lack ousting power at all :unsure:

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22 May 2014 11:29 - 22 May 2014 11:33 #62678 by ReverendRevolver
I just thought the superior of the first card was supposed to give a free +1 bleed, and didnt understand why the 2x was beneficial sinxe it basically is x, but only useable in groups of 2.

Chimestry permanents are typically things that either help you or screw others, theres not alot of toolup like protean has. So, draba at basic being on your predators vamps with some permanancy in play for them is the best non " burn all my sense deps after blocks have to be declined" setup i see here, but i still see no NEED for it.

Combat decks that deprive prey of minions fast imbalance the table more than stealthbleed. Sure, you can have a flaming crater as your preys ready region, but so what? You take six years to bleed them oit or draw fame or drafonbound, and your tension pings dont matter if they stay in torpor. You gave the next person you wanna oust several dozen turns with no predator, giving your grandpredator that many turns of "oh shit, cant go forward, my predator has nothing to do but oust me" and thus, your predator has the same advantage as your grandprey; no predator, so they can beat on the combat deck that apparently cant oust.
James is absolutely right about being deprived of minions being no fun and not great for a game.
Combat can flourish with moderate pressure early, and blocking the hell out of its predator, and then once its predator and grandprey are ousted it drops six tons of red cards and ousts the other two players.

Thats how minion deprevation wins, it either takes 2 ousts from the three way or it gets stupid lucky and ousts its first prey before its predator or grandpredator get ousted and then it takes the other 2 people in a 3 way.

Ravnos can deprive minions just like combat, as James said, but with an action. So, if they would play like a combat deck, and then lock down 4 minions, torp 2-3, they could use sense dep the right way.

Now, add in deep song and fata morgana, and its easier for that rare kill your prey oust earlier in the game, and as i explained, ravnos can clean up the 3 way with 60-70% of the rushwork redcard stuff being sense dep. So, since that is the point when youd burn sense deps to pump bleeds anyway, and doing draba and fatus mastery and permanancy is alot of cards for monkey wrench effect with buildup actions, doesnt it make more sense NOT to build a deck that isnt designed to live until 3 way then destroy stuff when its doing the same crap in the same window without keeping its resources? Even adding it to that kind of deck is only a one or two copies thing.

Sorry for the rant, just really didnt get the tactical process, just the obvious intent of helping ravnos oust more, which they plainly can do and have done with bleeds of 2-4, and voting, and minion lockdown, and of course enough lesbians to gain rank bonus (warhammer jokes are seldom useable on things that arent broken in vtes)
Last edit: 22 May 2014 11:33 by ReverendRevolver.

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22 May 2014 11:29 #62679 by Zoroh

This is a common-ish problem with rabid combat decks, that pack 12 rushes, 97 Immortal Grapples, and 350 Torn Signposts. (Numbers may be off.)

No, I think your numbers are ok. :laugh:

Keep walking...
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